Shanktified!

File this under tolerance.

I’ve been tossed into 2 (or maybe 3) conversations this week alone about Calvinism, God’s sovereignty and other closely related subjects. It’s so difficult to have this conversation in a few minutes when it took me months to come to the point I am now.  But in dealing with any objections, I am reminded of these quotes from Charles Simeon:

Many there are who cannot see these truths [the doctrines of God's sovereignty], who yet are in a state truly pleasing to God; yea many, at whose feet the best of us may be glad to be found in heaven. It is a great evil, when these doctrines are made a ground of separation one from another, and when the advocates of different systems anathematize each other. . . . In reference to truths which are involved in so much obscurity as those which relate to the sovereignty of God mutual kindness and concession are far better than vehement argumentation and uncharitable discussion (Horae Homileticae, Vol. 15, p. 357).

And look at this transcript of his conversation with John Wesley.

Sir, I understand that you are called an Arminian; and I have been sometimes called a Calvinist; and therefore I suppose we are to draw daggers. But before I consent to begin the combat, with your permission I will ask you a few questions. Pray, Sir, do you feel yourself a depraved creature, so depraved that you would never have thought of turning to God, if God had not first put it into your heart?

Yes, I do indeed.

And do you utterly despair of recommending yourself to God by anything you can do; and look for salvation solely through the blood and righteousness of Christ?

Yes, solely through Christ.

But, Sir, supposing you were at first saved by Christ, are you not somehow or other to save yourself afterwards by your own works?

No, I must be saved by Christ from first to last.

Allowing, then, that you were first turned by the grace of God, are you not in some way or other to keep yourself by your own power?

No.

What then, are you to be upheld every hour and every moment by God, as much as an infant in its mother’s arms?

Yes, altogether.

And is all your hope in the grace and mercy of God to preserve you unto His heavenly kingdom?

Yes, I have no hope but in Him.

Then, Sir, with your leave I will put up my dagger again; for this is all my Calvinism; this is my election, my justification by faith, my final perseverance: it is in substance all that I hold, and as I hold it; and therefore, if you please, instead of searching out terms and phrases to be a ground of contention between us, we will cordially unite in those things wherein we agree. (Moule, 79f)   (Source: Brothers, We Must Not Mind a Little Suffering :: Desiring God Christian Resource Library.)

J. Lee Grady, the editor of Charisma magazine, wrote this (and more)…

Though America needs true revival, any leaders who wholeheartedly endorsed Bentley promoted heresy rather than revival, according to Grady.

“Godly leaders are supposed to protect the sheep from heresy,” he wrote, “not spoon feed deception to them. Only God knows how far this poison traveled from Lakeland to take root elsewhere. May God forgive us for allowing His Word to be so flippantly contaminated.”

Charisma publisher Stephen Strang also took aim in a column at Bentley and those who supported him. Strang said the charismatic leaders to whom Bentley submitted himself in an accountability relationship — John Arnott, Ché Ahn and Bill Johnson — “should have seen it coming.” He listed several indications that Bentley’s ministry was not of God.

“Anyone who is in services 4 to 6 hours a day, 7 days a week for weeks on end is bound to have some type of breakdown,” Strang wrote. “Anyone who covers himself with tattoos while in the ministry raises questions about his stability.

“Anyone who talks about the ‘Angel of the Healing Revival’ that ministered to A.A. Allen and William Branham must have overlooked the fact that Allen and Branham both were discredited with moral shortcomings. Anyone who baptizes people in the name of the Father, the Son ‘and BAM’ is playing lightly with the Holy Spirit and is bordering on blasphemy.”

More of this must read is at Townhall.com

Dr. Gary Cass (Christian Anti-Defamation Commission) wrote a great article detailing why Obama’s faith is not Christian.

In a recent article about Obama’s faith, Newsweek reports that Obama reiterated his position that he is a “Christian” who rejects the idea that Jesus is the only way of salvation. Obama throws Christ under his campaign bus as he denies Christ is the only Savior of the World.

“It is a precept of my Christian faith that my redemption comes through Christ, but I am also a big believer in the Golden Rule, which I think is an essential pillar not only of my faith but of my values and my ideals and my experience here on Earth,” Newsweeks reports that Obama said. “I’ve said this before, and I know this raises questions in the minds of some evangelicals. I do not believe that my mother, who never formally embraced Christianity as far as I know … I do not believe she went to hell. My particular set of beliefs may not be perfectly consistent with the beliefs of other Christians.”

Obama rightly understands his faith is questionable and not Christian. That’s why he says his faith raises questions. But his faith is not only inconsistent with other Christians, it is inconsistent with Jesus Christ and the Apostles. Why would you say you are a Christian then denounce the teachings of Christ and the founders of the Christian Church? While it is very troubling to consider that anyone, especially a family member, might be in Hell, what really matters is what God has revealed, not what Obama wants to be true.

Below are a few examples from the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles that prove salvation comes through Jesus Christ alone.

Click here for those examples and the rest of the article.

Poll finds more Americans believe in devil than Darwin
“More Americans believe in a literal hell and the devil than Darwin’s theory of evolution, according to a new Harris poll released on Thursday.”

You would never guess that by the comments I get here.

In this YouTube Video Mitt Romney refuses to answer how Mormonism differs from Christianity.

Before you chime in and say “it doesn’t.”  My simple reply to that is “then why are they knocking on my door?”

Since Gov Romney won’t answer, just click here for an excellent list.

Are you a member of the Mormon faith?  Click here.

Jim had a great comment which deserves a full post for a reply. He wrote:

Hey.

Just a disclaimer - I am a Christian, and am not slamming typical Christian views.

First of all, re: your distinction between macro and micro evolution, could you define the word “species”? There are plenty of animals that cannot interbreed that would countermand your argument.

Second, why do you insist on interpreting the Book of Genesis literally? The Bible doesn’t tell you how to field strip a garand - it tells you how to live your life. I don’t think anybody thinks that the Bible is an authoritative view on how you should clean and service your 1911.

How does evolution affect your life, and how does it change the way you minister to the poor and homeless?

Jim, good post. Thanks. You wrote: “There are plenty of animals that cannot interbreed that would countermand your argument.” I assume you meant “can.” I don’t know of plenty. A few may be more correct. And of those few, I don’t know of any that can continue breading as this new species. Maybe if we give it a few million years Most common is the mule (the product of a horse and donkey). Mules are sterile; as are male tions and ligers. And all hybrids are man induced. I know of no natural hybrids.

Interspecies hybrids are rare and in most cases impossible (primarily) because of the chromosome numbers have to match (ex: chimps have 48 chromosomes and humans have 46). Let’s follow that thinking for a min… evolution teaches that this mutation occurred naturally. But keep thinking. One day, Bob (make him whatever species you want) is born from his normal chromosome matching parents. While very good looking and healthier than his friends at school, alas, Bob can’t mate because he has an extra chromosome. Eventually his successful modeling career ends and he dies. One magical day, this happens again. Again randomly to a set of normal chromosome matching whatsits. This one is named Sue. She is “lucky enough” to be born down the street from Bob (oh but he’s dead). Not so lucky. She dies.

My point is this. The likelihood of genetic mutation happening and successfully creating a healthier more advanced species is much harder to believe than a guy (albeit, with the oversight of an all all powerful all knowing God) survived a worldwide flood.

Where the Bible is written allegorical, I take it as such. Where it is clear it’s literal, I take it as such. What is your basis for deeming it allegory? Are you suggesting we should take Darwin’s tale as allegorical? Sorry. Of course you are not. I just get a little sarcastic before my second cup of coffee.

Evolution does not affect how I minister to the poor and homeless. If I believed in evolution it might. Because evolutionary thought typically leads to a “survival of the fittest” mentality. In other words, “I deserve to have a better life, they don’t. Why help them?”

To the contrary, as one who believes the Bible is the word of God, I am commanded to help those who are sick, naked and imprisoned (Matt 25:31-46). I also want to help, having been personally shown much grace and mercy from God. As a believer, I am sure you understand that.

Furthermore, it’s why I blog in the first place. Nearly all discussions eventually lead to the Gospel. It is my constant prayer that the Holy Spirit will use some of my feeble words to cause someone to consider their own “goodness” and ask themselves “yeah, why would God let me in Heaven?”

Again, thanks for stopping by and posting.

Enjoy.

PS: I’m handing out these.

This is post is part of a series of replies. If you landed here first, please see the intro post here.

Ron wrote: So what’s your story, Elsa? Why are you interested in this discussion? What do you believe and what led you to that belief?

I don’t “believe,” nor do I consider belief to be evidence of any truths. I observe, acknowledge evidence, and use logic to form my opinions. I also acknowledge that any part of understanding can be flawed, and have no problem adjusting my opinions in light of new evidence and new interpretations, as long as they are well-founded.

Sure you believe. We all believe something. I find your intentionally distancing yourself from anything that even sounds remotely religious sign of some deep hurt or offense. I hope that’s just my inner-Dr.Phil. And not based in fact. But if someone in the church has hurt you, I’m sorry.

But you are right that because we believe something doesn’t make it true. I always demand evidence; which is where every evolution debate I’ve ever had ends. Where’s the evidence of trans-species evolution? I believe in micro-evolution or as we called it as kids, adaptation. But I see zero-none-nuthin-honey evidence of the kind of evolution proposed in Darwin’s “origin of species”

I found this page while researching Ron Paul, because I want to be informed about the candidates before I cast my ballot, as I’m sure you do as well. As for this conversation, it’s important to me that people base their opinions on facts, instead of basing them on misinformation, especially when it comes to something as important as choosing the next leader of our country. I’m sure you can see what happens when people do that, as evidenced by our current president, who not only doesn’t believe in evolution, but apparently doesn’t believe in science all together.

And thanks for allowing me to clarify my facts and opinions.

If “belief” in evolution is such a deciding factor for who you vote for and who you recommend others to vote for, then please inform yourself about the actual theory. There’s a good reason why a doctor would acknowledge evolution as a fact, and that’s because he understands the real theory behind it, not some strawman argument that creationists set up to refute.

And with that we come full circle. There is much I don’t know, I admit. But I think I am informed pretty well on Darwin’s theory and the problems with it. Any further articulation would just be rehashing things I’ve posted in the Ron Paul reply.

Thanks for the discussion.

This is post is part of a series of replies. If you landed here first, please see the intro post here.

Ron wrote: As someone who believes the Bible is true, I also believe there is a hell awaiting for those who are “not good enough” to go to heaven. And I don’t want you are anyone else to go there.

Do you believe God loves all of his creation?

Yes, God does love his people. John 3:16, Rom 5:8

Also, do you believe that he will send those who are “not good enough” to hell for all eternity?

Jesus did. And so do I, Yes. God is Holy and just. A just God must punish sin/lawlessness. The place for those who have not repented and put their faith in Christ’s life, death and resurrection is commonly called Hell.

If you answer yes to both questions, how can you reconcile that, when you yourself, a mere mortal, have enough love inside you to not wish such a horrible fate on anyone?

Thank you for the compliment, however, any good inside of me is the work of God within me. Believe me there’s a side of me that would like to see some folks tossed in a lake of fire for all time. However, the Bible teaches this is not how God is most glorified. God is most glorified when sinners repent and put their trust in His Son for forgiveness.

Don’t take this the wrong way, but asking this question tells me you don’t understand how pure, how holy God is. We all have the tenancy to justify or excuse our own sins. But Jesus taught that hatred was murder of the heart and lust was adultery of the heart. The bible clearly teaches “all have sinned” and fall short of the Glory of God. There is none righteous.

If a child rapist and murderer got away with his crime, lived a long life only to die in his sleep are you saying that you wouldn’t want justice to await him? Of course you would. Especially if it was someone you know. If a holy God will punish murderers, will he not punish thieves, wife-beaters, liars, hypocrites, etc?

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)