Dec
09
Running to your base - smart.
Exclusive: Sen. Allen Withdraws ‘Hate Crimes’ Support — 12/09/2005
(CNSNews.com) - Republican U.S. Sen. George Allen will no longer support “hate crimes” legislation that includes “sexual orientation” as a protected status, even if the proposal is identical to a bill he voted for in 2004. The Virginia senator acknowledged Friday that such legislation could be used by federal courts to extend civil rights protections to homosexuals and to squelch free speech.
December 12th, 2005 at 1:45 pm
Gerge Allen is just being a politician. As soon as he gets re-elected, he’ll go back to being the pro-homosexual Republican he’s always been. He’s just proving he’s got his finger in the wind.
December 12th, 2005 at 4:49 pm
Why can’t homosexuals be protected under the law? Their is no Christian reasoning why they shouldn’t be. Yes, Being homosexual is wrong, but so is divorce and people that live together before marriage. Should they not have protection from those who mean them harm?
December 13th, 2005 at 8:34 am
They are protected. It’s against the law to kill a homosexual, just like it is your grandmother. Both crimes are murder and should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. What more do you want?
December 13th, 2005 at 7:50 pm
i just think that the we gotta get “em” attitude that some people have towards homosexualality hurts the Christian cause towards winning them over to Christ. Having “Pro-Family” groups pressure a vote isn’t a step in the right direction…not that the arrest of christian demostrators is any better (but again their actions hurt the cause of winning people to christ…everybody hates the annoying protester).
December 14th, 2005 at 9:51 am
I am curious if you think homosexual behavior is dangerous (physically and spiritually)? If so, should we warn them?
And how would you win a homosexual or anyone else to Christ, skunk?
December 14th, 2005 at 7:55 pm
I do think it is dangerous. It is dangerous to the people who practice the lifestyle. Yes, I do think think we should warn them, but there is a right and wrong way of going about it (to the second question : You witness to them in a manner that shows Christ’s love for them, despite their sin). Holdng a picket sign and having a bumper sticker never converted anyone…Ask Fred Phelps’ Church in Topeka KS.
December 15th, 2005 at 10:17 pm
You know, I’m always amused when I visit this website. As long as you guys aren’t scared that I’m going to infect you with my “homosexual lifestyle,” let me enlighten you with a few points.
1) Yes, Ron, people are protected by certain laws regardless of sexual orientation. But there are major loopholes. In most states in the union, you can still be fired from your job for being gay. A lot of states won’t recognize parental rights of gay people that are recognized in other states. PARENTAL rights. I know you’re a fair-minded person. Can you seriously tell me that’s not messed up? Do you really think that’s the way we should be treating people?
2) I don’t buy moral arguments against same sex relationships. I’ve been in both opposite sex and same sex relationships, and there’s really not as much difference as you would imagine. There’s certainly no moral issues. For example, having sex with someone who hasn’t consented or can’t consent is clearly wrong. No question. But if we’re talking about a consensual sexual relationship between two adults, what exactly is the moral issue? And don’t go back to Leviticus, because Leviticus says a lot of stuff that we don’t pay attention to. Seriously- why are opposite sex relationships morally superior?
3) Sex with a man is no more or less dangerous than sex with a woman. The danger is how many people you’re having sex with, and in what circumstances. You don’t really mean to suggest that a monogamous gay relationship is somehow more dangerous than a monogamous straight one, do you?
4) The notion of a homosexual “lifestyle” is really, really funny to me. There’s no such thing, anymore than there is one “heterosexual lifestyle.” If you just met me on the street today, we could have lunch and talk for hours, and I can practically guarantee you’d never know my sexual orientation unless it happened to come up in conversation (no one else ever does). My “lifestyle” isn’t any different from anyone else’s; the only difference is that sometimes I have a boyfriend instead of a girlfriend. And believe it or not, that’s how things are in the real world.
The bottom line is that, whether or not you think it’s wrong or not, this is not your place to judge. What Jesus would tell you is to do is NOT make judgments, be magnanimous, and try to be loving and supportive to your fellow human beings.
If you’re so convinced that God is going to cast us all into hell, then I suggest you let *us* be the ones to work that out with God. We can talk to him too, you know, and in fact many of us do on a regular basis. We can read the Bible too, and many of us are quite intelligent. Concentrate on your own behavior and reactions, and I think we could actually make some progress on the civil rights problem in our country today.
December 19th, 2005 at 1:58 pm
Thank for the “enlightenment”, AD.
A homosexual “couple” does not provide a healthy environment to raise a child. That’s why there are so many barriers to it. If you know of an unbiased study that proves otherwise, I’d be happy to review it.
And lets see, you are an openly gay man that finds his homosexual relationships just as moral as your heterosexual relationships were? Hmmm.
I’d glad to see you have a sense of right and wrong. Some morality is better than none. Where does your basis for morality come from? Your conscience? The Bible? Parts of the Bible? Mine comes from Scripture, if you find my life out of step with Scripture, I always welcome a note encouraging me to change my ways. I always welcome that (well, at least in hindsight)
Without getting too graphic here, the sexual practices of homosexual men result in early death.
http://www.afamichigan.org/images/Intl_Journal_of_Epidemiology.pdf
And let me be totally clear here. It is my place as a Christian to try and show you what scripture says. It is clear that without repentance of what scripture calls sin (that goes for anything - not just gay or straight sex) you can not be made right in God’s eyes and you are in danger of hell.
Look, I don’t know you - but I know me. I know that I - without Christ’s forgiveness - would be headed for Hell also. It is what I deserve. But, by the grace of God, A.D., I have been made clean. Is it wrong for me to want to share that with you? I understand only a portion of what the Bible teach about hell. But it would be the greatest of sins to not plead with you to seek God. Ask if He really thinks it is sin. Ask Him to show you the truth and be willing to repent of anything He will show you.
May God’s mercy be yours.
Sincerely,
Ron
December 19th, 2005 at 9:40 pm
There’s a few things you’re throwing out here: an argument that 1) homosexuality hurts children, 2) that it’s immoral, and gay people should go to hell (if for no other reason than Christian doctrine), and 3) it’s less healthy than heterosexual sex. But you’re not supporting any of the claims you’re making.
1) An “unhealthy environment for children”?
That’s an awfully nice way of calling someone a pervert. I suppose next you’re going to start quoting the Cameron study, which interestingly enough, studied children who were at the heart of appellate custody disputes with a whopping sample size of 38- that’s bad science no matter how you slice it.
Look, a definitive collection and analysis of studies of children of homosexual parents over the last couple decades can be found here: http://www.ucc.uconn.edu/~britner/borisjuk.html
The overwhelming evidence indicates that parents’ sexuality has nothing to do with a child’s social or sexual development. (Which intuitively makes sense to me; I have yet to meet any LGBT person whose parents weren’t straight. Why are we so surprised it works the other way?)
2) “Homosexuality is immoral”
Well, your argument is really that homosexuality is condemned by scripture. That’s not really a moral argument. What I’m not getting from you is *why* it’s necessarily immoral. An example is in order.
Suppose that tomorrow, God came down and said that as of tomorrow, rape is now moral and acceptable. Using your logic (i.e., if God says it’s good then it is good), rape would then be moral. But you and I know that the story doesn’t end there: apart from anything we’re told, we know that rape is a horrendous violation of another human being. Therefore, apart from anything God says, we would that rape is wrong. The sense of “wrongness” of the violation is the moral factor, not the fact that God said it.
What’s missing from your analysis of homosexuality is the moral element. As I pointed out earlier, there’s nothing intrinsically wrong (or even that different) about gay sex. Until you can articulate some moral principle, you don’t have a leg to stand on in this debate.
Worse for you, you’re going against the spirit of what Jesus taught. Jesus often chided people for clinging too heavily to scripture, when the humane thing to do was otherwise apparent. Open up your eyes. There are thousands and thousands of happy, healthy gay families in the United States today. Are you still going to cling to Leviticus and call those families abominations? Does that even make sense?
I think you’d do well to get off your moral high horse. It’s not nearly so high as you might think.
3) “It’s unhealthy compared to heterosexual sex”
I’m interested in what exactly it is you think we do in bed that’s so different from straight people. Last time I checked, straight couples do everything in bed that gay couples do.
Look, HIV and AIDS don’t discriminate between gay and straight. The risk factor being pinpointed is multiple sexual partners. Frankly, the idea that LGBT people have more partners than straight people is downright offensive. I know many, many, many more straight people who are less careful about who they sleep with than I am. This argument is just an ugly stereotype, and it’s beneath both us to sit here spending time on it.
What you seem to think throughout this conversation is that you have the exclusive grasp on God, and what God wants. That’s arrogant. I can’t speak for you, and I sure that I’m a more of a mystic than you would ever be comfortable with, but my experience with God had been entirely different. More so than anything else, my experience of God is one of love, and of attempting to make us more like God (much like Lewis wrote about).
What necessarily makes your experience more valid than mine? Because someone (a human, like you and me) wrote it down in a book? And just because someone wrote it in a book, that’s all that can ever be said on the subject? Are you *so sure* that you can be absolutely be 100% definitive about a concept which your finite mind cannot even begin to conceive?
So sure, in fact, that you can say *without a doubt* that your beliefs can be imposed on all other people through the legal system?
I’d submit that no one can be that sure about anything, especially where God is concerned. But, then again, I’m sure there’s Bible verse that’ll prove me wrong . . . (that’d be irony:))
December 20th, 2005 at 11:58 am
The uconn link you referenced was mainly based on a study by University of Virginia prof. Charlotte Patterson.
http://headlines.agapepress.org/archive/2/92005b.asp
Patterson is a lesbian in a relationship with a female partner, and the couple has three children between them. That’s hardly an objective study.
Other points I want to address quickly:
Morality comes from God. This is best revealed to you by the Scriptures. However your God-given conscience also stands as a witness to what is right and wrong, so that on the day of judgement you (even if you never had a bible) are without excuse because you sinned “with” (con) “knowledge” (science) “with-knowledge” (conscience). Leave my hetrosexuality out of this for a moment and you’ll see that I have often sinned with-knowledge that what I was doing was wrong. Even without scripture telling me, I had violated the standard that somehow was placed deep inside me.
High-horse? AD, I’m not on a high-horse. Forgive me if it comes across that way. To clarify. I am a sinner saved by the grace of God through faith in Christ’s sacrifice on my behalf. I am no better or worse than you without Christ.
Do I have all the answers? No, but the Bible does. It was not written by “a human” rather it is a collection of 66 books, written by 40 or more different men over a period of 2,000 years.
And yet… it is clearly one Book, with perfect unity and consistency throughout. Please read it and obey what you read.
Your argeument is not really with me, AD. Your arguement is with Scripture and your own conscience.
John 14:21-24 Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.” (22) Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?” (23) Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. (24) Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father’s who sent me.
December 20th, 2005 at 9:47 pm
Amen.
December 21st, 2005 at 6:32 pm
Interesting post, Ron. You say anyone who loves Jesus will keep his word. Do you eat shrimp or fish? Uh-oh!
Leviticus 11:9-12 says:
9 These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.
10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.
Deuteronomy 14:9-10 says:
9 These ye shall eat of all that are in the waters: all that have fins and scales shall ye eat:
10 And whatsoever hath not fins and scales ye may not eat; it is unclean unto you.
Let’s focus on the biggie though. Levitivus is MY favorite book. What other goodies does it hold???
It requires:
* a child to be killed if he/she curses their parent (20:9)
* all persons guilty of adultery to be killed (20:10)
* the daughter of a priest who engages in prostitution to be killed (21:9)
* the bride of a priest to be a virgin (21:13)
* ritual killing of animals, using cattle, sheep and goats (22:19)
* observation of 7 feasts: Passover, Feast of Unleavened Bread, Feast of Firstfruits, Feast of Pentecost, Feast of Trumpets, Day of Atonement, Feast of Tabernacles (23)
* a person who takes the Lord’s name in vain is to be killed (24:16)
It prohibits:
* heterosexual intercourse when a woman has her period (18:19)
* harvesting the corners of a field (19:9)
* eating fruit from a young tree (19:23)
* wearing clothes that are made from a textile blend (19:19)
* cross-breeding livestock (19:19)
* sowing a field with mixed seed (19:19)
* shaving or getting a hair cut (19:27)
* tattoos (19:28)
* even a mildly disabled person from becoming a priest (21:18)
* charging of interest on a loan (25:37)
I promise as someone who personally knows AD, and someone else who is bisexual, that I’ll personally see to it that neither of us adopts children if we have a same sex relationship if you have never taken part in any of these vile sins forbidden by our Lord and Saviour.
By the way, concerning Patterson being a lesbian, sometimes really smart people like scientists do this thing called “a double blind study.” Look it up.
I’d also like to point out that AD never said he wasn’t a Christian. Interesting, huh?
December 21st, 2005 at 9:13 pm
You know, what I find really amazing/frustrating in this conversation is not the fact that you have no idea what you’re talking about. (Obviously you don’t know what you’re talking about- if you were gay or had a close friend or family member who was, we wouldn’t be having this conversation.) What really floors me is that you have no idea that you have no idea what you’re talking about.
And I’m even forgetting for the moment that you just blew by two decades of research which contradicted your position (on the basis, supposedly, that gay people can’t conduct honest scientific research for no other reason than they are gay- are you really saying that?). I’m also forgetting that you didn’t even answer my point about morality, as you have yet to explain what is inherently wrong with homosexuality or what criterion “deep inside you” tells you that it’s wrong.
Let’s just forget all of that for a moment.
You *are* on a high horse, because you’re the one claiming that you have all the answers to the salvation and damnation of every human being. Do you realize what an utterly ridiculous claim that is, for you, a human being, to be making? Can you hear how pompous, arrogant, and ignorant that sounds when you say it out loud?
I’m not claiming to know everything about God or even about Christianity, but I know that loving another person and being affectionate with them just doesn’t seem like it could possibly be wrong. It also doesn’t seem wrong that two gay people care enough about a child to adopt or be foster parents. In fact, that seems like the opposite of wrong. And if you can’t see that- if you think that Christianity, or in broader sense God, condemns love, affection, and simple humanity, then something is *seriously* wrong with your ideas about Christianity.
Christianity which doesn’t tolerate love and companionship in all its myriad forms isn’t Christianity. It’s a perversion.
So before you start spouting off scripture about how all of us are the sinners, I suggest you think about how serious that charge is, and to take a look at the log in your own eye.
December 22nd, 2005 at 11:08 am
[...] Le_Sigh, had a wonderful post (over here) worthy of starting it’s own thread. [...]
December 22nd, 2005 at 11:17 am
AD, I’m obviously not the one to discuss this with you. You seem to see me not as someone who wishes to help you, but as a combatant or someone to debate endlessly. I’m sorry for that. I wish you well. May you find truth.
For those also reading the thread, I would only add that every view I have taken is one based on scripture. My feelings on one sin or another are not relevant, because I will not be the one judging anyone. God will by the standard He as put forth in scripture. Agree with me or not, my hope is that you will pick up the bible and read it for yourself everyday - then obey what you read and know that God will not let you down.