by Ray Comfort
Of all the questions you will ask yourself in life, probably the most important is, Am I good enough to go to Heaven? The way to find this out is to ask yourself if you have obeyed the Ten Commandments. Most would answer the question, “Well, I’ve broken one or two, but nothing too serious, like murder, etc.” So, let’s go through them and see how you do:
1. “You shall have no other gods before Me.”
Is God first in your life? Do you love God above all else? Many years ago, I purchased a T.V. for our children, but the first evening we had it, I arrived home from work and found that they didn’t even bother to greet me. They were too busy watching television. I turned it off and explained to them that if they ignored me because they preferred to watch T.V. they were setting their love on the gift rather then the giver, a wrong order of affections. In the same way, if we love anything – husband, wife, children or even our own lives – more than we love God, we are setting our affection on the gift rather than the Giver, which is a transgression of the First Commandment. In fact, the Bible says that we should so love God that our love for Mom and Dad and brother and sister should seem like hatred compared to the love we have for the God who gave those loved ones to us.
We are also commanded to love our neighbor as much as we love ourselves. Jesus spoke of a Samaritan who found an injured stranger, bathed his wounds, carried him to an inn, gave money for his care and told the inn-keeper that he would pay for his expenses. We call him the good Samaritan, but in reality he wasn’t “good” at all, he merely obeyed the basic command to love his neighbor as himself. That is a picture of how God expects us to love our fellow human beings. We should love them as much as we love ourselves…whether they be friend or foe.
Have you loved God with all your heart? Have you loved humanity as much as you love yourself? You be the judge. Will you be innocent or guilty on Judgment Day of breaking that Commandment? I’m not judging you – I’m asking you to judge yourself before the Day of Judgment. The sentence for breaking this Commandment is death.
2. “You shall not make for yourself any graven image.”
This means that we shouldn’t make a god to suit ourselves, either with our hands or our mind. I was guilty of this. I made a god to suit myself. My god didn’t mind a “white” lie or a fib here and there – in fact, he didn’t exist. He was a figment of my imagination, an “image” which I shaped to suit myself. Is your God the One revealed in Holy Scripture? If not, then you have made your own god to suit yourself – you have committed the oldest sin in the Book. Scripture warns that no idolater will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
3. “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.”
Have you ever taken God’s name in vain – instead of using a four-letter word to express disgust, you’ve used His name? Hitler’s name wasn’t despised enough to use as a curse word. If you have used His holy name in that manner, you are a blasphemer and will not enter the Kingdom of God.
4. “Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy.”
I ignored this command for 22 years. Even though God gave me the gift of life, never once did I ask what He required of me. I was guilty of breaking this Commandment.
5. “Honor your father and your mother.”
Have you always honored your parents in a way that’s pleasing in the sight of God? Ask Him to remind you of the sins of your youth. You may have forgotten them, but God hasn’t.
6. “You shall not murder.”
Jesus warned that if we get angry without cause we are in danger of judgment. If we hate our brother, God calls us a murderer. We can violate God’s Law by attitude and intent.
7. “You shall not commit adultery.”
Who of us can say that we are pure of heart? Jesus warned, “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust after her has committed adultery already with her in his heart.” Remember that God has seen every thought you have had and every sin you have ever committed. The day will come when you have to face His Law, and we are told that the impure, fornicators (those who have sex before marriage) and adulterers will not enter the Kingdom of God. Punishment for transgression of this Commandment is the death penalty.
8. “You shall not steal.”
Have you ever taken something that belonged to someone else (irrespective of its value)? Then you are a thief – you cannot enter God’s Kingdom.
9. “You shall not bear false witness.”
Have you ever told a lie? Then you are a liar. How many lies do you have to tell to be a liar? Just one. The Bible warns that all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire. You may not think deceitfulness is a serious sin. God does!
10. “You shall not covet.”
That means we shouldn’t desire anything that belongs to another person. The covetous will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
Who of us can say we are not guilty of breaking these Commandments? All of us have sinned, and just as with civil law, you don’t have to break ten laws to be a lawbreaker, so the Bible warns, “For whoever shall keep the whole Law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.”
A little girl was once watching a sheep eat grass and thought how white it looked against the green background. But when it began to snow she thought, “That sheep now looks dirty against the white snow!” It was the same sheep, but with a different background. When we compare ourselves to man’s standard we look pretty clean, but when we compare ourselves to the pure snow-white righteousness of God’s standard – His Law, we can see ourselves in truth, that we are unclean in His sight. That Law is the holy standard by which humanity will be judged on Judgment Day.
This may sound strange, but the worst thing you could do at this point of time is to try and clean up your lifestyle – you realize that you have sinned, so from now on you will keep the Ten Commandments, do good deeds, say the right things and think only pure thoughts. But should a judge let a murderer go because he says he will now live a good life? No, he’s in debt to justice and therefore must be punished.
The Law of God is merely like a mirror – all a mirror does is show you the truth. If you see egg on your face, you don’t try and wash yourself with the mirror, it’s purpose should be to send you to water for cleansing. Neither should you try and wash yourself with the mirror of God’s Law…that’s not its purpose.
The sight in the mirror is not a pretty one, but if you don’t face it and acknowledge that you are unclean, then all that “dirt” will be presented on Judgment Day as evidence of your guilt, and then it will be too late to be cleansed.
Perhaps you think that God is good and will therefore overlook your sins. But if you were guilty of terrible crimes in a civil court and said to the judge, “Judge, I am guilty but I believe that you are a good man and will therefore overlook my crimes,” the judge would probably respond by saying, “You are right about one thing; I am a good man, and it’s because of my goodness that I am going to see that justice is done, that you are punished for your crimes.” The very thing that many are hoping will save them on Judgment Day, God’s “goodness,” will be the very thing that will condemn them. If God is good, He should punish murderers. liars, thieves, etc., and Hell will be their dreadful fate.
What a terrible place Hell must be. If you read in the newspaper that a man received a $5 fine for a crime, you could conclude that his crime was insignificant. But if a man received multiple life sentences, you could conclude that his crime was heinous. In the same way, we can catch a glimpse of how terrible sin must be in the sight of God by looking to the punishment given for it – eternal punishment. Ungrateful humanity never bothers to thank God for His wonderful blessings of color, light, food, joy, beauty, love, and laughter, so He will take those blessings away from them. Instead of proving their gratitude by obedience to His will, they use His name to curse. Their punishment will be just but severe to the uttermost. Take the time to read what Jesus said Hell was like in Mark 9:43-48. I am afraid for you…please, look honestly into the mirror of the Law, then seek the “water” that cleanses every sin. If you don’t believe what I am saying about the reality of Hell, it means you think God is corrupt (that He hasn’t the moral backbone to seek justice), that Jesus was a liar, that the Apostles were false witnesses, that God’s promises are nothing but prefabricated lies, and there is no greater insult to God than to call Him a liar. By doing so, you are adding to your transgressions. Imagine if you reject the Savior, die in your sins and find that what I have told is the Gospel truth? Then it will be too late, you will be judged for you sins. If that happens, and your eyes meet my eyes on the Day of Judgment, I’m free from your blood. I have told you the truth, but if you choose to ignore it your blood will be upon your own head…you will have no one to blame but yourself.
Can you see your predicament? You are guilty of sinning against God Himself, and, because you have a conscience, you have sinned “with knowledge.” Isn’t it true that every time you lied, stole, lusted, etc., you did it with knowledge that it was wrong?
Does the fact that you have sinned against God scare you? It should. You have actually angered Him by your sin. The Bible says His wrath abides on you, that you are an “enemy of God in your mind through wicked works.” But let fear work for your good in the same way that a fear of jumping out of a plane at a great height would make you put on a parachute. Let your will to live open your heart to the Gospel of salvation.
I am not the only one who doesn’t want you to end up in Hell. The person who gave you this tract cared enough to give it to you and risk your rejection, and God Himself is not willing that you perish. To make clear what an incredible thing He has done for you in the Gospel, let’s look again to civil law: You are standing in front of a judge, guilty of very serious crimes. All the evidence has been presented and there is no doubt about your guilt. The fine for your crime is $250,000 or imprisonment, but you haven’t two pennies to rub together. The judge is about to pass sentence…he lifts his gavel, when someone you don’t even know steps in and pays the fine for you. The moment you accept that payment, you are free to go. Justice has been served, the law has been satisfied, and what’s more, the stranger who paid your fine showed how much he cares for you. His payment was evidence of his love.
That’s what God did for you, in the person of Jesus Christ. you are guilty, He paid the fine 2,000 years ago. It is that simple. The Bible puts it this way: “he was bruised for our iniquities . . . Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the Law being made a curse for us…God commended His love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.”
It was no small thing for Jesus to die for us. The only thing that would satisfy the demands of Eternal Law was the suffering death of the sinless Son of God. What love God must have for you! He suffered unspeakable agony, so that you wouldn’t have to be punished for your sins. His sacrificial death and resurrection mean that you need no longer be in debt to the Law, and God can now grant you everlasting life if you obey Him — death no longer has a legal hold upon those who belong to Jesus Christ.
Two men were offered a parachute while seated in a plane. The first man was told it would improve his flight, but the second man was informed he had to make a 25,000 foot jump. when the flight struck severe turbulence the first man took his parachute off because as far as he was concerned it didn’t improve the flight. but during the same violent turbulence, the second man clung tighter to his parachute. Each man’s motive for putting the parachute on determined whether or not they would keep it on. In the same way, the reason you should “put on the Lord Jesus Christ” shouldn’t be to find peace, joy, true happiness, to have your marriage healed or your problems fixed, etc. (to have your flight improved), but it should be to escape the jump to come – because of the fact that you have to pass through the door of death. Then, when the flight gets bumpy (when problems come) you won’t fall away from the faith.
What should you then do? Simply repent and put your trust in Jesus Christ as your Savior and Lord. Don’t put it off until tomorrow.
Would you sell an eye for a million dollars? How about both for $20 million? No one in his right mind would. Your eyes are priceless to you, yet they are merely the windows of your soul. Your life (your soul) is of such value, Jesus said that you should despise the value of your eye compared to it. He said that if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you, for it is better to enter Heaven blind than to go to Hell seeing. In other words, of all the things you should prioritize in your life, it’s not your health, your vocation, etc., it’s your eternal salvation.
Think of a man who has committed adultery. His faithful wife is more than willing to take him back, so what is the attitude in which he should approach her? It should be one of tremendous humility, asking for forgiveness, and determining in his heart never to even think of committing adultery again.
That’s how you should approach God. If you are not sure how to pray, read Psalm 51 and make it your prayer. Then put your faith in Jesus Christ in the same way you would put your faith in a parachute. You don’t just “believe” it will benefit you, you actually trust yourself to it by putting it on. Then, once you have made peace with God, read the Bible daily and obey what you read.
By the way, someone cared enough about you to give you this tract. Show God you love others by doing the same for them. Write to Livingwaters.com for a free list of unique tracts, books, tapes, and videos to help you in this respect.
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January 3rd, 2008 at 2:52 pm
Dear Ray: Those are not the Ten Commandments. They are never referred to as the “Ten Commandments” in the Bible. The list that is actually called the “Ten Commandments” is given in Exodus 34, and consists of the following (New International Version):
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Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land where you are going, or they will be a snare among you. Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles. Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God. Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land; for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to them, they will invite you and you will eat their sacrifices. And when you choose some of their daughters as wives for your sons and those daughters prostitute themselves to their gods, they will lead your sons to do the same.
Do not make cast idols.
Celebrate the Feast of Unleavened Bread. For seven days eat bread made without yeast, as I commanded you. Do this at the appointed time in the month of Abib, for in that month you came out of Egypt.
The first offspring of every womb belongs to me, including all the firstborn males of your livestock, whether from herd or flock. Redeem the firstborn donkey with a lamb, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck. Redeem all your firstborn sons.
“No one is to appear before me empty-handed.
Six days you shall labor, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even during the plowing season and harvest you must rest.
Celebrate the Feast of Weeks with the firstfruits of the wheat harvest, and the Feast of Ingathering at the turn of the year. [b] 23 Three times a year all your men are to appear before the Sovereign LORD, the God of Israel. 24 I will drive out nations before you and enlarge your territory, and no one will covet your land when you go up three times each year to appear before the LORD your God.
Do not offer the blood of a sacrifice to me along with anything containing yeast, and do not let any of the sacrifice from the Passover Feast remain until morning.
Bring the best of the firstfruits of your soil to the house of the LORD your God.
Do not cook a young goat in its mother’s milk.
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To tell you the truth, I cannot tell the exact number of “Commandments” that make up this list, but that’s a whole other debate. The fact remains that these are what the Bible calls the “Ten Commandments.” No other list can legitimately be called the “Ten Commandments,” including the list presented above by Ray Comfort.
January 3rd, 2008 at 3:52 pm
Historically, they are commonly referred to as the Ten Commandments, or Ten Statements, more correctly called the Ethical Decalogue. But to dwell on this seems to miss the point of Ray’s column. IF God judges you by Exodus 20 would you be innocent or guilty? He’s trying to appeal to your God-given conscience.
If you are guilty (and who isn’t?) will God send you to heaven or hell? That’s the serious point Ray (and I) want you to ponder. You can refute it all as mumbo-jumbo — but if it’s true you will have to answer to a God of justice, who is Holy and who said He will punish all sin/lawlessness. I say that not as a threat but just outlining what scripture clearly teaches. Really, Geoffry, does that concern you at all?
January 4th, 2008 at 1:41 pm
Ron, can you give me one scrap of evidence that any gods exist? And by evidence, I mean something rational that would withstand scientific scrutiny, just like all other claims about our universe must do. I’m certain that you can’t. But if you can, I’ll happily change my belief, like any good scientist would. If you can’t, then at least admit that your belief in god has no rational foundation, and that there is no reason to base one’s life on it. Better to base one’s life on that which is true.
January 4th, 2008 at 2:01 pm
The numerous prophesies of scripture are probably most compelling to me. But you are right, it’s not all about what you can observe. Obviously, there is faith required. Especially that your sins can be forgiven. That can never be proven this side of eternity. But there is more than enough evidence that those who honestly seek God will find him. Have you read the bible? Again, not meaning that in a hostile way — it’s merely a question. Like I said, I’m willing to discuss it as long as you like – if you are really interested.
January 4th, 2008 at 2:30 pm
Ron: Yes, I have read much of the Bible, but probably not all of it.
As I’ve just written in our other ongoing debate, the so-called prophecies of the Bible cannot be proven to have been actual prophecies, i.e., that they were made before a given event, and that the given event actually took place. What one prophecy do you find particularly compelling?
January 4th, 2008 at 3:43 pm
Ron, regarding the Ten Commandments: Is the Bible the word of your god, or not? If yes, then why do you believe that what your god has called “the Ten Commandments” aren’t really “the Ten Commandments”?
January 5th, 2008 at 6:55 am
GK. I’m confused. I thought I answered this. Yes, the Bible is the word of God. If you would prefer to not use the phrase the 10 commandments, you are welcome to just say Exodus 20:1-17. I don’t care. To most it’s clear the difference is one is an ethical group and the others contain ceremonial laws. But again this is a rabbit trail away from your own conscience. We all know it’s wrong to lie, steal, lust. Yet we have violated the law as written on our own conscience. My question earlier to you is IF (make that as big an if as you need to) if the bible was right, and day comes when you will be judged by a holy God who knows even the thoughts of you mind – does it concern you you would be found guilty?
January 5th, 2008 at 3:16 pm
If I am ever hauled before a being of some kind who claims to be a god and who announces that he is about to judge me, I would be concerned. I would wonder if this were some interplanetary psycho who gets offended when people don’t worship him. I would be concerned that some people back on Earth are worshipping this fat-headed maniac, rather than fighting him.
January 10th, 2008 at 5:03 pm
Anybody home????
January 13th, 2008 at 10:10 am
Hey everybody… I think this means I WIN!!!!!!! WOOOOHOOOOOOO!!!
January 14th, 2008 at 7:35 am
GK, sorry for the delay. You must not have received my email that I’m a little busy at the moment, but would get back w/ you as soon as I am able.
Also I don’t see this as some sort of debate where one of us wins and the other looses. Faith in Christ is not some “intellectual assent” you make. As I think I’ve stated before, no one can make you believe anything you are not willing to believe.
Beyond that, your tone is quite disrespectful. Could be you’re just trying to be cute and keep the mood light. But your last post is really blasphemous and offensive. I too have said things I regretted before I was born-again. I hope you will be shown the same grace. But if you want to carry on a civil conversation, I’m all for it. Part of that civility requires not referring to someone I love as a fat-headed maniac.
Furthermore, the fact you are not concerned about your own sin before an Almighty, all knowing, God tells me you are not interested in hearing more from me. And the rest of our conversation just becomes foolish argument. I’d encourage you to search the scriptures. God promises to reveal himself to any who would seek him. (I Chronicles 28:9)
January 15th, 2008 at 10:21 am
Wow, I see that your debating tactics have shifted to insulting me personally. Two things:
1) My January 13th comment was a light-hearted way of getting you to reply. I thought that the “WOOOOHOOOOO” would have given that away. Of course, if one party in a debate is unable to offer an intelligent response, then in my opinion they would in fact forfeit the debate. Which brings me to
2) Your comments about my “blasphemous and offensive” remarks. You must understand that my comments are honest and truly what I believe. If you can ever hope to debate an atheist, you must come to terms with the fact that atheists don’t believe that any gods exist. You must understand that I sincerely cannot convince myself that there is any such thing as a god.
Now put yourself in the shoes of someone who doesn’t believe that there are gods in this universe. What do you think such a person would think if he/she were dragged before a being that claimed to be a god? One obvious possibility is that such a being would be seen as an imposter, for gods just wouldn’t be a rational possibility for this person. Do you see where this inevitably leads? This person would truly think they were facing what I called a “fat-headed maniac,” in the mold of a Hitler or Saddam. I am not trying to be insulting or “cute.” If you wish to debate honestly and face my argument intellectually rather than emotionally, you will accept that this is my true belief and rebut my opinions with whatever facts you have to the contrary, as you are more than welcome to do. But to simply toss my argument aside and attack me personally is not an intelligent reply.
By the way, can you tell me where in the Bible it states that your god is almighty and all-knowing? Possibly I missed it, but if so I would like to know where it is written. And please take another shot at my previous statement. I am truly interested in having an open and honest debate on this important subject. If you don’t want to debate it, then just say so, and I’ll move on and try to find someone willing to have an intelligent discussion.
January 15th, 2008 at 11:19 am
GK,
1. There was no personal attack from me. Saying you were disrespectful is not a personal attack.
2. I could honestly believe many things about Mohamed, but if you were Muslim, I’d still refrain from calling him a fat-headed maniac.
3. I am not sure what argument I’ve tossed aside.
4. re: Almighty
5. “You must understand that I sincerely cannot convince myself that there is any such thing as a god.” Again, this is not merely an intellectual assent you make, Geoffrey. I’m not saying put down your intellect. But I am saying a person must be humble enough to admit it’s possible something out there started this whole thing. And until you are able to do that, there really isn’t a point in us debating – because it really won’t lead anywhere.
Again, I’m not saying that to dismiss you or end the discussion. I’m just saying, there’s only so much I can say. A man who thinks he is strong enough to swim on his own, is only going to see a life preserver as a nuisance at best and foolishness at worst.
January 15th, 2008 at 3:20 pm
1) To call someone disrespectful is, in fact, a personal attack. You should address your comments to disproving my statements, not calling me names.
2) Do you believe Hitler was a fat-headed maniac? I do. And if I were debating with a Hitler-worshipper over how loving and merciful Hitler was, I would state in no uncertain terms that he was a fat-headed maniac. Wouldn’t you? It’s my honest belief, and there’s no way or reason to sugar-coat it. As I said, you’re welcome to present evidence to the contrary. That’s how a debate works.
And besides, I was not insulting your god. I was describing to you how I would interpret the high-and-mighty behavior of a being other than your god, since I don’t believe your god exists. To me, it would seem far more likely that such a creature was a fraud rather than a god. That’s the essence of my viewpoint. You can ignore the term “fat-headed maniac,” and we can continue our discussion.
3) The argument that you are tossing aside is the answer I gave to your question about standing before a creature claiming to be a god. You haven’t acknowledged that this is truly what I believe. Instead, you seem to think it’s nothing more than an insult that I am aiming at you. No! I really would be highly skeptical, based on my admittedly limited understanding of nature. I have seen many frauds, and zero gods.
4) Re: Almighty: I should have said almighty and all-good, since that is the paradox that religionists struggle with. Anyway, thanks for the references.
5) Where did I ever say that it was IMPOSSIBLE for a god to exist? I just don’t BELIEVE that any gods exist. I’ve made this crystal clear in previous postings. Of course it is possible that a god “started this whole thing,” but it is illogical to me for many reasons. One big one: you have to tell me where the god came from, and you can’t. You would say “He always existed.” Well, if you can so easily invoke infinity, why not me: the universe always existed, in one form or another. Poof! No god needed.
Re: Humility. When I arrive at a conclusion, I don’t sit there and try to figure out what the most “humble” explanation would be. It’s not a matter of being humble; it’s a matter of simple logic, completely divorced from ego. And besides, is it really more humble to believe that you are one of your god’s favorites, and that he frowns on everyone else?
RE: “Life preserver”: So your god is a “life preserver” that I’m refusing? Consider this: 6 million Jews died agonizing deaths in World War II. It’s hard not to believe that every last one of them was begging your god to spare them and their loved ones. He didn’t. This is your “life preserver”? I would be very interested in your definition of “life preserver.”
January 15th, 2008 at 4:00 pm
1 and 2. And perhaps you should disapprove of God’s actions rather than calling Him names, referring Him to Hitler, etc.
3. I have no doubt you are sincere. You have also never seen the wind.
4. God is all good. He is also just.
5. Okay.
6. I know I don’t deserve any grace. You in fact are probably a better human being than I am. I can’t tell you why God has saved me – but I give Him all the credit and praise for it. Because if it were up to my own goodness, I’d be sitting on cot next to Hitler.
7. The life-preserver analogy was not directly aimed toward you – but it might as well have been, I guess. The point of it is that if you are not drowning and I toss you a life preserver – in your eyes, I am an idiot.
7a. Re: the Jews who died. see John 13:1-5
January 15th, 2008 at 4:49 pm
1 and 2) I have plenty to disapprove of in the actions of the character God in the Bible. But I was not referring to him, because I don’t believe he exists. I was referring to a creature calling himself “God.” I would believe such a creature to be a fraud, and I would not feel bad about the moniker I gave him. A fraud such as that would deserve much worse.
3) I am glad you do not doubt my sincerity. There are indeed many things I have not seen. To believe they exist, I must have some kind of evidence. Faith is not evidence.
4) Says who?
5) Do I understand you correctly? Are you agreeing that there is no need to attribute the universe to your god? If so, you may yet be saved!
6) You’ve skipped a step in the debate. The question is not, “What has your god done for you,” but “Can you prove to anyone that your god exists in the first place?” And if there is no proof that I can evaluate, then how can your god blame me for not believing evidence that doesn’t exist? Does he expect me to deny my own rationality? It would seem that the central focus of our debate should be, “How do you know?” Such as:
A) How do you know that your god exists? And
B) How do you know the Bible is the word of your god?
7) I cannot label as “an idiot” someone I don’t know. You could just as easily be misinformed, or delusional, or just trying to hit me with the life preserver.
7a) So as I interpret John 13:1-5, you’re saying that the 6 million Jews who died horrible deaths deserved it. Well, I guess that clears up a lot of things. So Hitler was your god’s instrument. He was actually a good guy, wiping out the evil ones. That is quite a revelation. Let me know when you go public with that one; I want to come and watch.
January 16th, 2008 at 10:13 am
Oh good grief, Geoffrey. Of course Hitler was not a good guy. He was evil. But re-read the scripture. The point is you and I are not any better than the Jews who died – and in fact we all deserve death. Where’s the proof of that? It starts in your God given conscience. All men are born knowing right from wrong – even cannibal’s don’t eat their own. The amazing design of the universe, of nature and of any other science you wish to study, is evidence of a designer to anyone who hasn’t closed their mind to it. You will not be judged by your lack of knowledge but rather by the sins committed against your own conscience. I don’t know what more I can say – but I do urge you to re-read the Bible, examine the prophesies, examine the manuscript evidence for the scripture and pray and ask God if He does exist to give you the proof you need. He’s gracious in that regard.
But I get the impression (hopefully I am wrong) that you really don’t want to know God; even if He did provide proof. You seem to have already made up your mind that He is an evil Hitler-like type of ruler that only seeks to crush your little life. When in fact, nothing could be farther from the truth. The fact you and I live today is evidence of God’s mercy. Until you can grasp that you will never see. Again, pray.
January 16th, 2008 at 1:36 pm
Ron – I disagree strongly with your statement that we all deserve death. Your explanation is nebulous, to say the least: We’re all born with a conscience, and we all commit “sins” against our conscience, and therefore we all deserve death. You lost me. Sin, whatever that is, calls for death because…why?
I’ve repeatedly asked for evidence, and you repeatedly refer me to the Bible. Why should I believe that? Just because you do? And why do you believe it? Just because someone else told you to? Let’s get to the heart of the matter: What proof is there that the Bible is the word of your god? My mind is wide open. All it needs is evidence in order to believe something. What do you require in order to believe something? Does it have to appear in the Bible before you’ll believe it? A bit of cirular logic there.
You tell me to ask you god for the proof I need. OK, here goes, for your god and all the world to see: God, please give me proof of your existence.
OK, now how long do you think I should wait for this proof before deciding on your god’s existence? I am serious. I’ve done as you suggested, and I would like to know what to expect.
You tell me I should read the Bible. I have read much of it, and I intend to continue reading that and other things, such as science articles. Thus far, I’ve found some useful philosophy in the Bible, alongside a lot of trash. For example, there is exhaltation of evil, like Joshua killing all the inhabitants (men, women, and children) of Canaan. What a hero Joshua is.
And have you studied the history of the Bible? Do you realize that humans discarded many other gospels when they were assembling the Bible? How did they know which authors were “divinely inspired” and which weren’t?
And have you studied nature? And by that I mean things such as biology, chemistry, physics, and mathematics? If not, how can you disbelieve it? Do you really want to understand how the universe works? Sure, it’s a lot simpler to study the relatively miniscule work known as the Bible, and to chalk everything up to a grand designer. But it seems that one should study what is already known about the universe before tossing it out in favor of what is not known: a “faith” based on nothing more than somebody’s say-so. You seem to value as sacred the ignorance of all evidence pointing away from a “grand designer.”
And if you have studied the sciences and mathematics, what evidence do you have that contradicts their explanations of the universe? Specifically, what details of evolutionary theory do you disagree with? Which experiments and interpretations thereof, by which scientists? If you cannot answer this, then you have nothing on which to base a disbelief in evolution.
January 16th, 2008 at 3:25 pm
Sorry this is short, I really don’t have time, but since we keep coming back to this.. here’s a summary of my thoughts.
The Bible we have today is an incredibly accurate copy of the original writings. Proof: enormous manuscript evidence. If the copies we have today can be trusted – next we must determine if the words or intent of the authors themselves are indeed accurate. A good starting point for this is prophesy. Statistically speaking it’s nearly impossible for someone to predict just a few of the things predicted about Jesus. His birth, his ancestry, his residence, his death, manor of death, place of death and his resurrection all were foretold centuries before they came to be. Having already verified the dates of the earlier writings – we must conclude either the author was extremely lucky or he was inspired by someone outside of our confines of time and space. Fast forwarding a bit … it becomes much easier to believe the stories of creation and Noah.
Here are a few links to get you started.
http://www.carm.org/evidence/textualevidence.htm
http://www.ronrhodes.org/Manuscript.html
http://www.leestrobel.com/videoserver/video.php?clip=strobelT1074
Want a little more depth?
http://www.tektonics.org/lp/nttextcrit.html
If you are unwilling to believe the manuscript evidence, there is nothing more for me to say.
January 16th, 2008 at 7:11 pm
I’ve looked at the links you provided. They all deal with how accurately the New Testament has been copied through the ages, which is beside the point. Even if the ancients had used a Xerox machine, the important question remaining is: How do you know that the Bible is the word of your god?
You cite your belief of Biblical prophesy as proof that the Bible is the 100% true word of your god. The main problem with this assertion is that Biblical prophesies are very non-specific, allowing a great deal of latitude in their interpretation. For example, where in the Bible does it SPECIFICALLY predict those things you mentioned about Jesus: His birth, his ancestry, his residence, his death, manor of death, place of death and his resurrection?
And kindly address my question about how much you have studied nature. You cannot rule out natural explanations unless you first study them. It makes no sense to toss out what is known and substitute “faith” in its place. Since I looked at the links you provided, perhaps you would look at one on evolution. Here is an excellent site on the subject, provided by UCBerkeley, one of the world’s top institutions of learning:
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/search/topicbrowse2.php?topic_id=41
Please tell me if you can find anything on that site that is not proven to a degree of certainty that you find convincing.
January 17th, 2008 at 11:26 am
GK says: “I’ve looked at the links you provided. They all deal with how accurately the New Testament has been copied through the ages, which is beside the point.”
It’s not beside the point. It’s an important first step in understanding (not agreeing) where I am coming from. Are you saying you agree that the copies are accurate? I don’t want to misunderstand you.
Excellent link. I’ll take more time with it when I have more time. But they’ve appear to have done a great job of putting evolution on a layman’s level.
One quick point: Look here.
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/evoscales_02
What you should see is something like this:
I’ve modified the image to show what you SHOULD see if macro evolution were true. Notice in their image green and brown become … green or brown. What evolution can’t provide evidence of is upward evolution where a blue beetle or blue strain comes out of nowhere. That is where I have problems with the theory. No one should deny micro-evolution (some will argue against the term, but I’ll use it here because the orig article did). In fact, I believe science has done a good job of proving what is shown in the orig. diagram. We don’t disagree at that level. At least I don’t think we do.
January 17th, 2008 at 1:07 pm
RE: Accuracy of copies: I can see the relevance of this if the prophecies are sprecific and not open to interpretation. But that’s not the case. They are open to broad interpretation. So let’s assume for the moment that the accuracy of the copies is not in question. Where in the Bible does it SPECIFICALLY predict those things you mentioned about Jesus: His birth, his ancestry, his residence, his death, manor of death, place of death and his resurrection?
I understand your question about evolution. The kinds of changes you show DO occur. It just takes a long time, so normally you don’t see it in one generation (“micro-evolution”). As explained at the evolution web site, new things pop up as a result of mutations. Sometimes a mutation is visible immediately when it occurs (i.e., within a single generation) and sometimes it’s not. As mutations accumulate, a gene could produce a protein more and more different from the original. If there are blue plants for the beetle to blend in with, then natural selection could favor those mutations that cause the green pigment to become bluer, until a blue beetle finally appeared.
This is the importance of what Darwin saw on the Galapagos Islands. He saw all kinds of birds filling ecological niches that elsewhere were filled by other species. These birds had differnt beak sizes and shapes, different colors, etc. After much study, he happened to notice that all these birds were all finches, and he concluded that a small finch population had gotten blown off-course and been forced to land on these islands. With lilttle or no competition, they developed all these new characteristics as adaptations to their new environment. Some became adept at cracking seeds, others to catching insects, etc. They had a whole smorgasbord to choose from, and they adapted over time to new forms, each specialized for a particular food source. Since they were isolated on these islands, there were no populations of the original finches for them to interbreed with, which would have kept their descendents looking more like the originals, at least for a much longer time.
January 21st, 2008 at 11:50 am
Ron – any comments, questions, or answers?
January 23rd, 2008 at 12:44 pm
Hey GK – just a note to let you know I am really busy.. but will get back here in a couple weeks. See ya then, Lord willing.
January 23rd, 2008 at 10:50 pm
A couple WEEKS?? I could die and go to hell by then!!! Hmmm. Maybe that’s your PLAN! Dastardly!
But seriously, this is always the point in the discussion where religionists drop out, so I won’t be surprised if you never show up here again.
January 26th, 2008 at 7:06 pm
One statement I want to make:The Bible states that when we die and leave this earth we will stand before God and He will judge us accordingly. Well, here’s something i’d like to insert simply because this debate is largely intellectual: Christians believe that when we die, our spirits go to God to be judged.Here’s the problem with basing beliefs solely on intellect and not blending it with a strong faith. When we die, our brains don’t ascend to God, He does not judge our brains, but us, soul and spirit. I’m sure(at least I hope) that it would not be disagreed with that we have souls/spirits. I want to add this too, if, big if, the whole Bible is wrong and all of the amazing Christians I know are wrong about there being a God, and I die and go nowhere, I still will NEVER regret living my life as a bible believing Christian woman. My life is amazing because I am priviledged to follow in the footsteps of Jesus and do the things that He did. I am priviledged to live a life of knowing what true love is(as defined in the Bible and by viewing Jesus’ life)and being able to do great things in my life. I’ve seen God compared to Hitler, but what about God who Mother Teresa followed? She did amazing things in His name,and she was not evil or egotistical or judgemental.Do you think she regrets her life? I’m not questioning intelligence here, i’m isolating specifically heart and conscience and questioning these. Do you think christians today who truly follow after Jesus regret their lives? Just something to ponder in yuor hearts.
February 8th, 2008 at 12:43 pm
I read through all of the above ‘back and forth’ between GK and RS. I am a Christian. I think it’s interesting when someone refuses to take even the tiniest step in faith. Also, Geoffrey’s insistence that any unwillingness to continue to debate with him means that he’s “won”, when, in truth, this appears to be nothing more than mere entertainment for him. He appears not to be searching for God – rather just looking for an argument. The Bible (which I already know he will not acknowledge) says that the things of God are foolishness to man and that a fool declares there is no God.
God is perfect. His creation was perfect, until man fell from grace. God so amazingly loves his creation that he sent Jesus, to die in our place. Jesus is the means by which we can cross from the imperfect to the perfect. Now, no one HAS to believe that. God also gave us free will. He wants us to make a choice about Him. The better choice is so apparent. Why would anyone make any other choice?
Obviously, Geoffrey imagines he will end up as nothing more than compost. Sad, really, when God gave each of us such great spirits, minds, and souls. But, that’s fine, even though it’s spiritually wrong. It’s his right to think that. He’s had the truth presented to him, and he’s made a choice. If he’s genuinely concerned about dying and going to hell in a couple of weeks, he knows what to do about it.
It’s easy to scoff at God and His plan when your life has no apparent need for Him. I hope you need God badly, someday, Geoff. If that day comes, you’ll find that he will completely forgive your earlier ignorance and embrace you as His child. And if you never acknowledge your need, you’ll have no one to blame but yourself.
February 9th, 2008 at 5:50 pm
Kristin – If by “soul” you mean “a conscious entity that survives death and is subject to happiness or misery in a life to come,” I would ask what the evidence is for its existence. I would also advise you to be careful with your terms. You say “soul AND spirit,” as if they are two different things, which I don’t think you intended.
Regarding “I still will NEVER regret living my life as a bible believing Christian woman” : Great, then you’re content believing that it was a GOOD thing that Joshua killed everyone in Canaan and took it over. It was a GOOD thing that Lot’s daughters raped him. It was GOOD for Abraham to obey a voice telling him to kill his son. It’s real important not to boil a lamb in its mother’s milk (so important that it’s one of the REAL “Ten Commandments” – see Exodus 34). It was GOOD that your god let 6 million of his “chosen people” die horrible deaths under the Nazis, ignoring their prayers for rescue. Whatever makes you happy.
Re: “My life is amazing….” You don’t have to be a Christian to do good works. Anyone who does good works in life deserves recognition for them, whether these people are Christians, Hindus, atheists, or others.
Re: “Do you think christians today who truly follow after Jesus regret their lives?” Who knows? I’m not a mind-reader. But we have not been talking here about regretting one’s life. We’ve been talking about what’s known and what’s not. I prefer to base my life on what is known. I view faith as undesirable. Therefore, I seek solid, proven facts to fill the gaps in my understanding, attempting to minimize what I have to take on faith.
February 9th, 2008 at 10:43 pm
Kathy – Re: “The Bible says that the things of God are foolishness to man and that a fool declares there is no God.” Of course the Bible villifies infidels. Be proud that you and muslim extremists have this in common.
Re: “God so amazingly loves his creation that he sent Jesus, to die in our place.” What a great plan! Here’s your all-powerful god, trying to figure out a way to keep us from dying. “How can I stop myself from sending everyone to hell? Hey, I’ve got it! I’ll create a baby boy, and when he grows up, I’ll have the Romans kill him! That should stop me!” Kathy, this makes sense to you? If so, please explain it to me.
Re: “Jesus is the means by which we can cross from the imperfect to the perfect.” How exactly does this work? How does the death of Jesus allow us to become perfect? There are a few steps missing here. Can you give a step-by-step description of the process, with the evidence proving each step? If you can prove it, I’ll believe it. Is that asking too much?
Re: “God is perfect.” Says who? Again, do you have any proof to back you up?
Re: “Geoffrey imagines he will end up as nothing more than compost.” True. I don’t have a glorified image of my importance to the universe. Animals die and become compost. Humans are animals. There is no evidence that in death we are any different from other animals. Therefore I believe we must make the most of THIS life, and take care of THIS world, because it’s all we have. Christians like GW Bush don’t give a damn about this world.
Re: “I hope you need God badly, someday, Geoff.” Translation: “I hope something bad happens to you, Geoff. Something so bad that it will force you to ignore your rational mind and believe identically to me.” Kathy, that’s nice of you. I have no doubt that you fervently hope for this. It is vital to you that nobody doubt your set of beliefs.
Re: “And if you never acknowledge your need [for my god], you’ll have no one to blame but yourself.” I have no need for your fairy tale. You have no need for rational thought. Pardon me for siding with rational thought.
In my opinion, your beliefs are probably an accident of your birthplace. If you had been born in Saudi Arabia, you’d most likely be a muslim. Had you been born in southern India, you’d probably be a Hindu. As an American Indian, you would have been raised to believe in various spirits. Just because you happen to be a Christian and know some “amazing” Christians, doesn’t mean you’re right. There are “amazing” muslims, Hindus, atheists, and Jews too. You don’t have a monopoly on religion, morality, or amazingness. Look around.
February 11th, 2008 at 10:20 am
GK, I am still digging out from my trip and post tornado effects here (Hardin Co. TN). I’m fine, but my son’s school was destroyed. Without getting in to a long post again, I’m curious about one thing. Where does your sense of right and wrong come from? It’s clear from your posts you obviously have one. Just curious.
February 11th, 2008 at 12:51 pm
Good to have you back, Ron. I’m sorry to hear of the disaster there in TN. I hope you and your family and friends are all OK.
Re: Where did my sense of morality come from. I can only give you my best guess, which is not easy to come up with. I would have to say that my parents have given me a good sense of right and wrong. Some of it also seems to be innate. I think most 5-year-old kids will feel sad if they see an animal hit by a car, even if they don’t know the animal personally. This happens with no help from the Bible. Even isolated tribes who never had contact with the Bible will have their own moral codes. China had a very well-developed civilization with well-developed moral codes without any help from the Bible. My belief, which is pure speculation, is that moral codes in general are based on man’s inherent ability to feel the pain of others, and also on his ability to realize that pain and wrong-doing are not good for a civilization. Whatever the case, it is clear that the Bible is not required for a moral code to arise.
February 15th, 2008 at 9:26 am
i just read the above debate, and this post is for geoffrey, or any other non-believer who sincerely is searching for answers. i would like to make a suggestion for you. do you have two hours of private, uninterrupted time you can spend? if so, i highly encourage you to listen to two amazing sermons–all the way until the end and the closing prayers. i can’t copy a link, but i’ll direct you where to go. the pastor, tommy nelson, is very much an intellect who knows the bible. i have never heard a better presenter of the word before. please please give it a try? i would love to read your input on what you get out of his sermons… good, bad, nothing or SOMETHING.
here’s where to go:
go to iTunes. in the top search field, type in “tommy nelson” and hit enter. when if refreshes, you should see a brown box icon that has a wheat stalk in it. that is the logo for denton bible church. click on that… in there are loads of his sermons (which i warn, these are highly addictive!!)
i would like for you to start with these two:
1) DOXOLOGY
2) BEHOLD THE MAN
i have enjoyed reading the on-going debate. and geoffrey, please understand, christians will spend time in debates such as these, because of the sincere love and compassion they hold in their hearts for the “lost” (according to their beliefs, according to what is written in scripture.) God changes the heart of a born-again person. you just can’t describe on a page, the difference in one’s heart before and after conversion. our heart’s desire is for everyone to come to know their personal Jesus. because it is God’s desire, and He dwells in the heart of a believer. He is a personal God, who calls us individually to be His. it’s a wonderful plan of God’s… i encourage you to learn it.
please share what you think of those sermons! i look forward to your reply.
sincerely,
colleen
February 15th, 2008 at 11:12 am
PS-
i should mention, you actually go into the iTunes store and then do the search. all his sermons are free. (and got terrific ratings too!)
February 15th, 2008 at 12:10 pm
PSS-
sorry, one last thing… i recommend the sermon BEHOLD THE MAN, not be confused with BEHOLD THE LAMB which you will pass first when scrolling down. i’m sure they are both equally terrific, but it’s the first one i listed that has the best Jesus message.
February 15th, 2008 at 1:44 pm
Colleen – I can feel a typical one-way exchange of ideas about to take place, wherein the religionist tells me to read the Bible, or listen to a preacher until I believe like them. Keep in mind that a preacher’s words do not constitute proof. But I’ll tell you what. I’ll visit that web site if you visit the one on evolution that I posted:
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/search/topicbrowse2.php?topic_id=41
And when you go there, you must tell me if there’s anything there that is not proven to a degree of certainty that you find convincing. And I’ll do the same with your web site. Deal?
February 20th, 2008 at 9:20 am
Hello Geoffrey,
How are you? You have me at a slight disadvantage. I’m not much of an ‘intellect’ by any means, and comprehending what I read isn’t my strong suit. I clicked on your link, and inside are numerous other links to more links. I’ll be honest, I may skim thru these a bit, but i’m certain they won’t make much sense to me.
Please keep in mind, because you are a visitor in Christian forum, you are the one treading on foreign territory, so to speak. We are not in an Atheist forum convincing you to explore Christianity, by a bargain. The Christians in here are already solid in their conversion and will not change their minds. They can’t–it’s impossible! Instead, the Christians should be praying that God will convince YOU to explore His plan… they do not come in here to be convinced to abandon their beliefs, by searching into topics they (we) often find irrelevant. (Evolution). Nothing you guide me to will make me change my mind, because I have already been delivered. I am bought by the blood of Jesus, and that my friend, you never lose. So what is the point in me reading about evolution? Why would you WANT me to read things that ultimately could cause confusion at best, in my mind? Satan would love for me to venture in there. He wants to rattle and stir up the believers into chaos and confusion. I realize you don’t believe in Satan, but I do. (Read Revelation if you want to learn of God’s plan for eventually destroying Satan).
You don’t have to listen to those sermons. I only suggested them because this man’s method of teaching the bible (called, “Expository preaching”) was what changed my life. When he taught me about Paul in Romans 7, that for me was when it all “clicked” and I have never been the same. I accidently found this website the other day, searching for something else. I skimmed thru the above debate, and felt led to post what I did. Whether or not I read your suggested link, I still hope you will take a couple hours of your time to listen to my suggestions. It isn’t for me, this is for you. Learning more about evolution won’t change where I go when I die. But you hearing the truth of God spoken to you… that will never leave you, and may bring you to a place where you come to know the God of your creation. The God who loves you and calls you to personally belong to Him. You have something to benefit here, not me.
Where’s the proof in that preacher’s words? Can’t answer that. But I can say, thru his words came the proof to my heart. God speaks thru his annointed ones. I can’t show physical proof, I can only testify that there was real change, conversion, in the depths of who I am. I now live with hope, with peace, with my sights focused upwards, not in this world. I live with comfort when my life has struggles, because I have a God in my heart who loves me and hurts when I hurt. The proof is in the heart of one who is truly converted.
But I guess you will have to experience that for yourself, before you will ever come to believe it.
Geoffrey my friend, please listen to those sermons. You may gain the universe.
In Christian love,
Colleen
February 20th, 2008 at 11:47 am
http://www.wayofthemaster.com/audiolessons.shtml
Scroll to the very bottom to listen to the Atheist debate…
March 1st, 2008 at 4:25 pm
Where is Geoffrey? I wanted to hear from him after he followed Colleen’s advice. I have not been there myself, so I do not have a clue what the preacher teaches, but I am interested in Geoffrey’s response.
March 3rd, 2008 at 4:20 pm
Colleen,
Despite your unwillingness to visit the web sites I suggested, I have visited yours. Here are my comments on them:
1) The preacher web site: No revelations here. He just preaches. Zero evidence. He says things like, “If you’re mean to my son, I’m gonna hate you.” And “If you’re nice to my son, I’m gonna love you.” He is basically saying that his god thinks like him in these matters, so we shouldn’t hate his god’s son, or else his god shall smite us. How does he know this? Is there any evidence whatsoever? Of course not. It’s a fairy tale that was invented way back before man knew anything about natural laws, cells, genes, gravity, etc. In those days, it was the best thing going. But now we know better. At least those who care to learn can know better. But some prefer to remain in darkness.
Try this: For every statement made in the debate, by both sides, apply one simple question: How do we know that? The pro-science arguments can answer this question. The religionist can only say, “Because the Bible says so.” Oh, and this favorite: “I just know.” In science, the answers are there for anyone who cares to learn them.
2) The debate web site: Of course, the pro-religionist gives zero evidence. He just says things like, “How can a creation not have a creator?” What a ridiculous argument. My car creates exhaust. Would you call my car a creator? If so, fine. There is no reason to believe that everything in the universe was not created by nature, via natural laws. Therefore, nature is the creator. No god required.
Here are my comments about your other remarks:
Re: “I may skim thru these [evolution links] a bit, but i’m certain they won’t make much sense to me.” These links contain material on evolution written in very basic, non-technical, easily-understandable terms. All you need is the will to learn. Feel free to ask me if you would like my help through any rough spots. That is a serious offer.
Re: “because you are a visitor in Christian forum, you are the one treading on foreign territory.” Colleen, I was involved in this debate before you showed up. Ron doesn’t seem to mind debating, do you Ron? It doesn’t matter how many people here agree with one side or the other. In a debate, logic rules, not popularity. If you don’t like it, then stick with people who think, speak, and act like you do.
Re: “The Christians in here are already solid in their conversion and will not change their minds. They can’t–it’s impossible!” Then you find it impossible to change your mind to accommodate solid, scientifically proven facts. You may as well disbelieve gravity, light, and the rest of the universe while you’re at it. That’ll show those scientists!
Re: “Instead, the Christians should be praying that God will convince YOU to explore His plan.” I have explored his plan, and it’s not that great. Here’s part of it: Tell Joshua to invade Canaan and kill all of the inhabitants, including children. How loving he is! Here’s another excerpt of his grand plan: Have the Nazis kill 6 million Jews, and disregard all of their prayers for rescue. But Colleen, don’t question your god’s reasons. Just be quiet and think happy thoughts. And here’s my personal favorite part of the divine plan: Show great love for humans by having Jesus killed for our sins. Brilliant! Here’s your all-powerful god, trying to figure out a way to keep from sending us to hell: “How can I stop myself from burning everyone’s souls for eternity? Hey, I’ve got it! I’ll create a baby boy, and when he grows up, I’ll have the Romans kill him! That should stop me!” Colleen, this makes sense to you?
Re: “I am bought by the blood of Jesus.” See above. Yes, if I wanted to save my children, I’d have another child and git me someone else to kill him. Then all the others would be saved! This makes sense? Can you kindly describe to me, in detail, the process by which you are purchased with blood? If you can’t, then how can you say it makes sense?
Re: “So what is the point in me reading about evolution? Why would you WANT me to read things that ultimately could cause confusion at best, in my mind? Satan would love for me to venture in there. He wants to rattle and stir up the believers into chaos and confusion.” OH NO, YOU GOT ME! Yes, I’m the TOOL OF SATAN! The Church Lady couldn’t have said it better. Learning is EVIL! That gray matter inside your skull was an ACCIDENT and never should have been put in there.
Keep in mind that the evolution web site to which I referred you is filled with facts that would explain a great deal to you about how biology works. The web site belongs to the University of California at Berkeley, one of the world’s top institutions of learning.
Is this how you react to other kinds of knowledge as well? When you learned to read, did your mind wretch in spasms of chaos and confusion? Do you regret learning to read? There’s a well-known sarcastic statement, “Don’t confuse him/her with the facts.” It means that he/she sticks to his/her opinion regardless of how strong the evidence is to the contrary. I never thought I would actually see someone say this about themselves.
Would you like everyone to adopt your fear of learning? How about your doctor? Would you like him/her to understand how evolution changes disease (giving rise to drug-resistance, for example)? Many of our antibiotics are no longer useful, because the evolution of antibiotic-resistant diseases was not understood by many doctors. You apparently see no lesson to learn here.
Colleen, since you do not care to discover how things work in this world and this universe, you might as well just go back to sleep and leave the informed decision-making to those of us interested in learning. The age of faith-based pseudo-knowledge are rapidly drawing to a close.
March 4th, 2008 at 5:55 pm
Hello Geoffrey! Hadn’t checked in here a while… glad to see you here.
Thanks for replying!
Allow me to dive right in…
1) To answer your question in #1, “How do we know that?”
Which I assume you mean ‘anything’, in the bottom-line of what Christians believe?
Answer: Because Christians are changed from the inside-out. God transforms the heart and gives us (Christians) knew thoughts and desires–something a non-Christian will not come understand and know until they put their faith in Jesus.
2) You say, ‘the pro-religionist gave zero evidence’…
Again, how does one show evidence of a transforming heart? The evidence is known and felt on the inside, which, until you put your faith in Jesus, you will not come to know (and incidently keep sweating searching for answers you are never going to find).
From here I will reply to your re:s in order:
re:1 – Science has not nor cannot prove evolution to the extent you are trying to convince yourself of. The missing links are still just that… missing.
re:2 – I never believed Ron minded you being here, but I knew the opposite to be true. You missed my point. My point was, you are at a Christian blog trying to convince Christian folks of evolution. What i’m saying is, a true Christian will not change their mind, because it is impossible for them to by the new nature of Jesus that is within them. You say, “Then you find it impossible to change your mind to accommodate solid, scientifically proven facts.” and I say again, science has never, nor will it ever prove evolution to the point of say, “the big bang theory.” And I never said i didn’t like a debate or forum such as this. It’s by accident i even found this forum… divine intervention, perhaps?
re:3 – To respond to your Old Testament remark about Joshua killing children, (and/or any other comments based on bad things God “allows” to happen), I will quote from a website that provides tremendous amounts of information on so many various topics, including evolution. From LivingWaters.com, the question posed was:
***
“God told Joshua to kill every man, woman, and child, and He killed masses of people in Revelation. If that’s your ‘God of love,’ I want nothing to do with Him!”
The answer:
“God didn’t confine His wrath to the Canaanites, or to those mentioned in Revelation. He proclaimed the death sentence upon the whole of humanity. We will all die because we have broken God’s Law. Every one of us is waiting on death row. Instead of standing in moral judgment over Almighty God, we need to judge ourselves according to the Law of God (10 Commandments). We will find that we have a multitude of sins and therefore are deserving of punishment. Yet God, out of love, paid the penalty for our sin so we would not have to.”
***
As for the Nazis killing the jews remark… I’ll quote from WayoftheMaster.com (it’s long, it’s a tad off-topic from where you started but i think eventually covers where you are going with it.) From “The Jews, the Holocaust, and the Presence of God” by Ray Comfort:
***
”In January of 2000 a well-known ex-televangelist said on CNN’s Larry King Live, “I believe that every person who died in the Holocaust went to Heaven.” He was very sincere, and if he was seeking the commendation of the world, he surely got it with that statement. Who in the world wouldn’t see what he said as being utterly compassionate? Let’s however, take a look at the implications of his heartfelt beliefs. His statement did seem to limit salvation to the Jews who died in the Holocaust, because he added “their blood laid a foundation for the nation of Israel.” If the slaughtered Jews made it to Heaven, did the many Gypsies that died in the holocaust also obtain eternal salvation? If his statement does include gentiles, is the salvation he spoke of limited to those who died at the hands of Nazis? Did the many Frenchmen who met their death at the hands of cruel Nazis go to Heaven also?
Perhaps he was saying that the death of Jesus on the Cross covered all humanity, and that all will eventually be saved–something called “Universalism.” That means that salvation will also come to Hitler and the Nazis that killed the Jews. However, I doubt if he was saying that. Such a statement would have brought the scorn of his Jewish host, and of the world whose compassion has definite limits.
If pressed, he probably didn’t mean that solely Jews in the camps went to Heaven, because that smacks of racism. He was more than likely saying that those who died were saved because their death came about in such tragic circumstances. That then means that Jesus was lying when He said, “I am the way the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father but by Me.” There is another way to Heaven–death in a Nazi concentration camp. Does that mean that the many Jews who died under Communism went to Heaven? Or is salvation limited to German concentration camps?
If their salvation came because of the grim circumstances surrounding their death, does a Jew therefore enter Heaven after suffering for hours and then dying in a car wreck . . . if he was killed by a drunk driver who happened to be German? Bear in mind that his suffering may have been much greater than someone who died in minutes in a Nazi gas chamber.
Many of the unsaved think that we can merit entrance into Heaven by our own suffering. Their error was confirmed on Larry King Live by the sincere, compassionate man of God. They may now disregard “Neither is there salvation in any other. There is no other Name under Heaven given among men whereby we must be saved.” They can now save themselves by the means of their own death . . . if they suffer enough.
The ex-televangelist was concerned that his indiscretions of the 80’s brought discredit to the Kingdom of God. However, those actions fade into history compared to the damage done by saying that there is another means of salvation outside of Jesus Christ, on a program watched by untold millions around the world. Who on earth needs to repent and trust in Jesus, if millions entered the Kingdom without being born again? No one.
***
I hope you gained good insight there.
Second half of re:3… Yes, it makes perfect, wonderful sense to me.
God knew i’d never make it on my own (to Heaven), so He gave me another way. A mediator who willingly died a substitutionary death for my sins and for yours Geoffrey, so we can make it make it into God’s sinless, perfect and holy Heaven, simply by trusting in Jesus and repenting of our sins.
re:4 – How am i “bought” by the blood of Jesus? Because God promises this to me in His scriptures. Do you not know the story? It goes like this in a nutshell… Man wasn’t doing so good on his own, and God loves man so much He had to do something. He sent His son Jesus to come to earth to live a perfect, sinless life so that we might believe… perform great miracles (walking on water and calming the storm with his hand, turning water into wine, healing the sick and the blind, raising the dead–you get the picture) so that we might believe… He fulfilled all the old testament prophesies written about the ‘coming messiah’ so that we might believe… Then the time came, when he told his disciples His time had come, to basically die! They didn’t understand, but Jesus did. He knew the whole picture, and the necessity of mankind needing a reedemer. God didn’t force this upon him like your tone suggests above, He volunteered to do this. On the cross, He took on the sins of the world, and put them to death with Him. 3 days later He conquered sin and death when He rose from the dead. Jesus shed a lot of blood during His torture and crucifixion, so in essense, His blood paid the price for my sins.
re:5 – Now you are being silly. I never said you were the tool of satan. What does it matter to you anyways–you don’t believe in satan. But yes, satan will use any means necessary to try and confuse (especially) Christians. Even if it’s in a forum, where someone directs them to another forum that tries to discredit God.
In response to your last 3 paragraphs – I’ll remark to this one: “It means that he/she sticks to his/her opinion regardless of how strong the evidence is to the contrary.” You offer no evidence my friend. How can lil ol’ Geoffrey, offer anything above and beyond what God himself has already revealed to us? You have nothing new under the sun to offer.
No fear of learning here. I strive to learn more every day! Sure there are degrees of evolution–and things do evolve. But not to the extent that nullifies God. You just pointed me in a direction that simply doesn’t interest me. Give me scripture, and new things are revealed to me all the time. I love learning what the Bible has to share, offer and reveal–HOPE!
What does believing in evolution offer to the soul?
Last paragraph – you are very mistaken. Again, i love learning new things. I love history, i love science, (okay i hate math), and i love watching prophesies being fulfilled in my generation. It’s all very exciting–God’s universe is filled with excitement! And what excites me the most, is not only do I get to experience life and learning here on earth, I also get to experience the majesty of Heaven someday. With Jesus… the lover of my soul!
March 5th, 2008 at 7:27 pm
[duplicate post removed by admin]
March 5th, 2008 at 9:19 pm
Geoffrey, Having read some of your thoughts and answers to Colleen, the last thing I want to do is argue with you. I could never change your mind. If you will, however, allow me to point out some things about the message of the Bible and the God of the Bible, I believe that it might at least help you to see Christians from a different perspective.
Jesus said in John 17:3, “And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.” In another place He stated, “I have come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.” John 10:10. In John 14:6 – “I am the way, the truth, and the life…”
In a world where we are born to die, Jesus came with a message of life. If you go back to the book of Genesis, you find that in the Garden there was placed a tree of life. The only reason man was driven from the garden was to prevent him from eating from this tree of life and living in a sinful condition forever, separated from Holy God. With the introduction of sin, our mortality rate became 100%. We may kick at the pricks, but as an uncle of mine said recently, you can’t beat ‘old age’. Watch old movies and old TV shows and notice how many of those actors and actresses are no longer around. Check out neighborhoods and churches and you find from one year to the next that there are empty places that friends, loved ones, neighbors once filled.
Mortal man has many options concerning how to live his life, but in reality, he has nothing that can change the outcome stated above. Nothing, that is unless there is an intelligent designer who set the laws of this universe into motion. Physically we die, but God has given us a spiritual life. People for ages have sought a ‘religion’ that would offer some hope, but in reality all have been, by their own admission, manmade. All, that is, except Christianity. Christ is the light, the hope, and the only way for a man to be reconciled to his Creator. Every other religion known to man has been man reaching into darkness of sin trying to find hope. Only in the Bible to we find God reaching down to mankind and showing us the way that He has provided for us to be reunited with Him.
It is very obvious that you do not like the way he chose to do this and you think it was unnecessary, but you do not see the forces of spiritual warfare that are being fought daily and we cannot know all of the reasons for God’s plan. When Jesus was on earth and men began to realize that He was not going to establish an earthly kingdom many turned back from following Him. Jesus turned to his disciples and asked, “Will ye also go away?” Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.” John 6:67-68
Knowing God through experience is radically different than knowing about God from a theology textbook. Peter knew HIM. Christians who know Him may have a hard time explaining it to someone who is trying to reason it out and decide if they think God’s plan makes sense or if that is how it should be done, but those who have received Him by faith and have come into a personal relationship with Him know the way Peter knew. I said in the beginning of this that I can never change your mind, but your mind will be changed if you meet the Person. Geoffrey, I am praying that He will reveal himself to you.
March 6th, 2008 at 10:21 am
Jan,
I could take issue with many points you make. For example: “The only reason man was driven from the garden was to prevent him from eating from this tree of life and living in a sinful condition forever….” Apparently, this goal of preventing us from living in sin forever was not achieved, because that is the same reason given for your god having his son killed. Why didn’t his perfect plan work the first time?
I could go on, but logic seems to carry no weight in your world. In my previous postings, I have presented many logical arguments. It seems impossible to get religionists to respond directly to these. You haven’t. Instead, religionists quote the Bible, as you have. They are unable to prove that any of the divine claims in Bible are true. Therefore their arguments are based on nothing. You call it faith. But faith is simply a belief held in the absence of knowledge. Does logic count for nothing?
March 6th, 2008 at 11:37 am
Geoffrey,
As I said, I will not be able to change your mind and do not feel arguing would be productive. It is by faith that we please God. Hebrews 11:1 says that “faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” You asked me two questions and I appreciate your questions and would like to answer them to your satisfaction. The answers, however, are found in the Bible and it is when we reach the END of ourselves and our own logic and abilities that we “Through faith” begin to “understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God…”
If you would like more information on the subjects we discussed, Hebrews chapter 11 is a chapter on faith. Revelations 22 gives some information about the tree of life. As for me explaining God’s perfect plan, it would be presumptious of me to do that without referring you to God’s word.
One thing that I would like to share with you. I am not a person who has never had a realistic, logical thought and I am not a person who closed my mind and accepted a belief because I am too dumb or afraid to discard it. I can honestly tell you that when the Lord revealed Himself to me, I did not understand very well, but I knew at that time and I believed that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. From that moment on, He has held me in His grip. There have been times when I had doubts, have been unfaithful, and have been angry with God, but He has never left me and He has always pulled me back with an invisible cord. While I cannot see this cord, it is as real to me as this computer on which I post. Jesus promises His own that He will neither fail nor forsake us and this has been a reality in my life. I can only tell you about that which what I know.
No person was here when the worlds were formed and we were not here when the laws of physics or motion were put into place. Whatever we believe about life, we believe by faith. Misplaced faith is very dangerous.
March 6th, 2008 at 12:33 pm
But you HAVE closed your mind. You do not seek nor care to understand what is already known about the origin or the universe, life, and humankind. You prefer to follow a belief system that you cannot understand. I confess, I don’t understand it either. It is riddled with internal inconsistencies that I can point out to you if you are even the least bit interested in thinking about them.
Yes, we all take some things on faith. But faith is the absence of knowledge. Logic tells us the what we take on faith is NOT NECESSARILY true. It requires humility. You are preaching that what you take on faith is ABSOLUTELY true. It has no foundation beyond the self, and is thus self-centered. This is the key difference between the religionist and the scientist. Some of us seek to maximize logical understanding and minimize what we have to take on faith. You seem anxious to do the opposite. Avoiding logic does not make sense.
March 6th, 2008 at 3:09 pm
Hi Geoffrey,
I’m waiting on Ron to post my last reply to you. For some reason it never posted.
In the meantime, do you see here–that you are desperately searching for answers? It’s like you come here to see if you can get a “Christian” (someone you have come to know as immovable) to abandon their beliefs, even if only for a second, to have commonality with you–a non-believer–based on logic. It’s a challenge for you, I’m guessing because if you see that happen, then you feel validated in your quest to truly believe in evolution.
You are begging for this one solid, hit-you-over-the-head piece of evidence or proof, that will make you go, I GET IT. I HOLD THE ANSWER–THE KEY TO MY EXISTENCE. but that will never ever happen. You are searching for something you are never going to find.
I am convinced you would never have come into a Christian forum, if you were firmly and solidly planted in your evolutional beliefs. Something inside of you is battling for truth, and I hope you look upwards to find it.
Paul, in the New Testament. Research him. Here is a man who hated Christians so much he had many murdered. That was until Jesus revealed himself to him. Then the life change came… the passion in this man with the will of a bull, was so humbled and moved to preach of the Lord Jesus Christ, unto his own brutal death.
My point is, Paul never expected to change His mind… but God had other plans for Him. Can happen to anyone, and often does.
March 6th, 2008 at 4:00 pm
Welcome back Colleen. If you trace the discussion back to its roots, you’ll find that I came here because Ron Paul claimed that evolution was “only a theory,” and that he didn’t believe it. So I came to explain what evolution really is. I didn’t come here specifically to target Christians. But it turns out that they seem to be the most threatened by evolution, as they had the most visceral anti-evolution response.
Your psychic analysis of my inner thoughts is completely off the chain. Something inside of me is not “battling for the truth.” However, I do seek the truth, and I’m willing to always learn and to question my own beliefs in order to arrive at the truth. You and your fellow religionists have demonstrated that you are not. You believe that to question the Bible is to be evil. This is what those whose livelihoods depend on the Bible have convinced you to believe, and you’ve swallowed it. And for you, it’s so much easier to claim the truth without really searching for it. Just accept what you’re told and then sit in judgement of those who don’t. They’re bad, don’t listen to them. Just block them out. What could be easier? Just obey the preacher. Sure beats studying.
In the sciences of evolution, gravity, light, genetics, and others, you would find a great deal of truth that explains many of the mysteries that religion was once invented to explain. You would find good people who do have a moral code, who do love their families, and who do care about what happens to this planet.
March 6th, 2008 at 5:36 pm
Hello Geoffrey,
Can I please ask, that you not refer to Christians as “religionists.” We are not in a lump sum with all other religions, as we stand apart as believing in one way to eternity in Heaven thru Jesus. What other religious folks have shared with you, is most likely not the same beliefs we as Christians hold to.
I have not researched into the roots of this topic and where you came from, but I do know you keep coming back. You admit you are questioning your own beliefs and searching for truth, whereas we (Christians) do not question our beliefs and are no longer searching for truth. Just one big difference between a Christian and an unbeliever. I don’t believe Christians are threatened by evolution as you state. We are simply secure in our beliefs that God created the world. If you believed an apple was red, would you waste your time researching that perhaps it really isn’t red, when you have a clear understanding that it IS indeed, red?
What exactly guided you to think that if you question the bible, it’s evil? And you say, “This is what those whose livelihoods depend on the Bible have convinced you to believe…” Um, no, because “those” you refer to would be humans, and Christianity is not based on what other humans try and convince us of. It’s based entirely on a one-on-one personal relationship with our Father in Heaven, who sent Jesus that He may come into our hearts and transform them. I have swallowed nothing… but I have accepted Jesus as my one true Lord and Savior.
You say, “And for you, it’s so much easier to claim the truth without really searching for it.” Yes I claim truth. God breathed it, Jesus spoke it, and I believe it and have been changed by it. Why do you think I must continue searching for it? I have already found truth, and need not search any more. Would you keep searching for something you already have? Makes no sense. You are missing it, and therefore keep searching.
“Just accept what you’re told and then sit in judgement of those who don’t. They’re bad, don’t listen to them. Just block them out. What could be easier? Just obey the preacher. Sure beats studying.” …That comes across a bit negative… Why do you say that? Listen to whom? Who is “them”? I listen to my heart Geoffrey, and I listen to wonderful teachers whom God has gifted with the means to teach His word. I do study… but not that of which leads to nowhere. Life is too short for that.
Lastly, sure there are many truths to science. God gave man wonderful talents, skills and gifts to explore into his universe and the things of his universe. It’s a wonder out there with many magnificent things to behold and still discover. But science has not proven evolution to the extent of the big bang theory (something I mentioned in my other post, if it ever posts), nor will it ever. God already gave us all the answers. You have the choice whether or not you choose to believe Him.
As for the good moral code remark and families who love each other and care about the planet, etc., here is a quote from http://www.livingwaters.com/witnessingtool/browse.shtml: “Jesus said that only God is good. The only “goodness,” or righteousness, that the believer has comes from Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21; Philippians 3:9). The Bible tells us that, without Christ, man is corrupt and filthy; “there is none that does good, no, not one” (Psalm 14:3).
I like where Jan was going in her post above… trying to bring you to recognize and ponder the fact that you will die… And then what Geoffrey? Food for the worms? Is that all you think you are? What a brilliantly cruel trick of mother nature if that is all this world is–a huge fabrication that some omnipotent being invented–er, wait, that some nothingness of nothingness just happened to become and expand into something so huge… wait, that makes no sense either. Okay, I’ll play along and seek the answer on your side. Putting the undeniable and unmistakably transformed heart aside that only happens upon ones faith in Christ and the conversion that follows… putting that aside, and IF Christianity were a hoax… It still makes more sense to believe in God as Creator of the universe, than to believe in all of what we see and know to have evolved, not to mention what we have not seen yet and still do not know. In a universe that has no end, isn’t is a possiblility we only know one percent of one percent of what exists? Okay then, so evolved from what? How? Please explain? Are you saying that in your links you are leading us all to… that science has clearly without doubt, concluded and explained that all of the universe evolved from nothing? Because that is the only option aside from God creating the universe……..
March 6th, 2008 at 6:36 pm
(okay, my post from a day or two did not show up on my computer earlier today, so i re-submitted it a second time. now they are both are there (40-41). thank you ron for posting it (well, them), as i missed it before and stated so.)
March 7th, 2008 at 7:57 am
Geoffrey,
Concerning your remark that I have a closed mind.
Of the following, who would you describe as having a closed mind?
Those who looked logically at the sun going down and rising each day and decide that it has to revolve around the earth, or Copernicus who believed that the earth revolved around the sun.
Those who believe that all things are possible are those who believe that nothing is possible unless you are able to see the logic of the situation.
Science is not something that man has discovered that helps him “overcome” his need for faith. Science is a tool or discipline that God has given mankind to use in the study of His creation. You do not have to close your mind and fear science to be a Christian. God will allow us to learn many things about the earth and universe, but ultimately, He is in control. We may misunderstand what we find and we may misinterpret or even misuse the information, but the fact that God allows it is not a threat and you do not have to close your mind to believe.
These men were both scientist and believers.
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/sciencefaith.html
March 12th, 2008 at 11:38 am
Colleen – Shortly I will post my reply to both of your lengthy postings. Hopefully Ron will allow my lengthy response.
March 12th, 2008 at 11:46 am
Colleen – You posted two lengthy postings. I’ll address them both here, starting with the first:
1) “Christians are changed from the inside-out. God transforms the heart and gives us (Christians) knew thoughts and desires–something a non-Christian will not come understand and know until they put their faith in Jesus.”
In order for me to better understand the process of becoming a Christian, let’s break it down. Step 1 would be to “put your faith in Jesus.” Step 2 is when your god gives you the thoughts and ideas that allow you to know that you’ve chosen right. Do I understand correctly?
Regarding Step 1: How exactly does one put one’s faith in Jesus? If I wanted to do that, how would I go about it?
2) “[H]ow does one show evidence of a transforming heart? The evidence is known and felt on the inside.”
How does one distinguish this from self-delusion? All the symptoms are the same. The murderer known as “Son of Sam” was certain that he was getting instructions from a neighbor’s dog. Schizophrenics see and hear life-like hallucinations that they cannot distinguish from reality. This is why it is vital to judge perception against an objective source. If Christianity or any belief has serious logical flaws, then I don’t care how good it makes you feel, I am not going to drink that Kool-Aid.
3) …”which, until you put your faith in Jesus, you will not come to know (and incidently keep sweating searching for answers you are never going to find).”
Sweating?? Who’s sweating? I love searching and discovering! How dull life would be otherwise! Why do you view searching as a negative? What better definition of an anti-intellectual than one who dislikes the search for knowledge!!
4) “Science has not nor cannot prove evolution to the extent you are trying to convince yourself of. The missing links are still just that… missing.”
This statement is factually, scientifically wrong. Life on Earth has changed through the millenia. This is a simple fact. This is evolution. There was a time when humans did not exist, but other life forms did exist. There was a time when birds did not exist, but other life forms did exist. Thus, life on earth has changed. Evolution is a fact. The THEORY of Evolution seeks to explain how those changes occurred. There are still some gaps in the theory, but it’s quite solid nonetheless, and the gaps are being filled in a little more every day.
And what “missing links” are you talking about? Do you mean that we have to find every single animal that leads to every single other animal? The fossils we’ve found are spectacular and constitute an enormous body of evidence already. And fossil evidence is corroborated by genetics, physics, chemistry, and other branches of science.
5) “I say again, science has never, nor will it ever prove evolution to the point of say, ‘the big bang theory.’”
See above. Not sure why you’re trying to complare it to the Big Bang theory, but it’s really irrelevant. Evolution has already been proven to have happened.
6) Your explanation of why it was OK for Joshua to kill children: “God didn’t confine His wrath to the Canaanites, or to those mentioned in Revelation. He proclaimed the death sentence upon the whole of humanity….”
Bottom line: Then you believe that it was OK for Joshua to kill children. It was OK for him to take his sword and rip open a child’s heart. It was OK to decapitate and otherwise hack a child to death. And not just one child, but every last child in Jericho. What unimaginable pain for the victims and their families to see their loved ones slaughtered, and then to be slaughtered themselves. Thanks for the morality lesson.
7) “As for the Nazis killing the jews remark… I’ll quote from WayoftheMaster.com (it’s long, it’s a tad off-topic from where you started but i think eventually covers where you are going with it.)….”
No, it’s totally off-topic. I asked why your loving god ignored the prayers of the Jews (and others) as they suffered awful torture and death in the concentration camps. I was pointing out that prayer and belief did nothing to help them out of that situation. Your answer discusses how to get into Heaven, a different issue.
Several questions come to mind here:
A) What exactly does it mean to “take on” the sins of the world? This term is vague. Please clarify. How exactly does one go about “taking on” sin?
B) How does a sin die? Is sin alive? How do we know? How do we know when sin is dead?
C) If your god is all-powerful, why did he have to have Jesus killed? Why not just kill the sin?
D) If killing Jesus was necessary, why did your god not just do it himself? Why get the Romans and the Jews to do his dirty work, bringing hatred up them? According to the Bible, your god had certainly done his share of killing before.
E) Why do Christians not revere the Romans and Jews, and Judas as well, for being the implementers of your god’s Great Plan?
Consider this alternate explanation of the life and death of Jesus: Jesus was born, became a great philosopher, and his ideas threatened the status-quo, so the keepers of the status-quo killed him. His miracles never happened. For example, when he fed the multitudes, they didn’t have enough bread, so he broke the bread into tiny pieces. Human storytelling being what it is, this act became magnified into a miracle. This makes infinitely more sense to me. No contortions of logic required.
9) “God knew I’d never make it on my own…”
Why not? Why didn’t he make you strong enough so you could make it on your own, and that way he wouldn’t have had to kill someone else to save you? Sounds like stupendously poor planning on his part.
10) “Now you are being silly. I never said you were the tool of satan. What does it matter to you anyways–you don’t believe in satan. But yes, satan will use any means necessary to try and confuse (especially) Christians. Even if it’s in a forum, where someone directs them to another forum that tries to discredit God.”
Guess I wasn’t being so silly, then, was I. In fact, I was being serious, using obvious sarcasm to make the point, which was that you view my attempts to educate you as possibly evil. I COULD be a tool of Satan, couldn’t I? You don’t know. Scary. Lucky for you, your god gives you tremendous strength against this imaginary creature.
11) “You offer no evidence my friend.” Huh?? I’ve referred you to a great web site full of evidence. Real evidence, not the imaginary kind that only you know inside of yourself. You can even go back to the original experiments and analyze them yourself. You can even repeat the experiments yourself. The body of scientific knowledge is out in full view for anyone to take a swing at. Unlike your view of Christianity, in science one is not required to believe FIRST and receive confirmation later. In fact, that kind of faith is anathema to science, as it is not based on fact. Occasionally, someone takes a swing an connects; they have a valid criticism, and they propose a better way of looking at nature. But rather than weakening the science-derived body of knowledge, such logic-based criticism only makes it stronger. This is why the body of knowledge uncovered by science is so solid. It’s been rigorously questioned and tested. And it works, whether you believe in it or not.
12) “Sure there are degrees of evolution–and things do evolve.”
It’s taken you this long to make that simple statement that you actually DO believe in evolution. This after telling me, “[Y]ou are at a Christian blog trying to convince Christian folks of evolution. What i’m saying is, a true Christian will not change their mind….” And “You offer no evidence my friend.”
Well, apparently SOMEONE has offered you evidence. So welcome aboard. Now that we’ve agreed that evolution is a fact, to what extent do things evolve, in your opinion?
13) What does believing in evolution offer to the soul?” Please define “soul,” and I will attempt to answer your question.
14) “Give me scripture, and new things are revealed to me all the time. I love learning what the Bible has to share, offer and reveal–HOPE!”
Great, you study the Bible and leave the study of nature to those of us who are interested in it. And hope your doctor is one of us.
Have you ever studied the history of the Bible itself? I strongly suggest that you do. You will find that humans decided which of the gospels to include and which to exclude. Humans made mis-translations that persist in your version of the Bible. It is clear that the Bible is a book written by humans and full of errors, omissions, and convenient editing. Here’s an interesting observation from Wikipedia:
“Many academic scholars and historians who read the Bible today maintain that it contains no accurate predictions of any past or future events. They claim that in some cases, transcribers of the scriptures may have inserted prophecies or attributed work that was written much later to earlier authors. In other cases, they say it is the readers of the Bible who are creating what they see as “prophecy”. This common tendency is known as postdiction–retroactive clairvoyance, or prediction after the fact. In the last century this view has been accepted by some more liberal theologians.”
****************************************
Now I will reply to your subsequent posting:
15) “Can I please ask, that you not refer to Christians as “religionists.” We are not in a lump sum with all other religions….”
Sorry, all religious people are religionists, which simply means that they adhere to a religion.
16) “[W]e (Christians) do not question our beliefs and are no longer searching for truth.”
Great, now you can go back to sleep.
17) “We are simply secure in our beliefs that God created the world. If you believed an apple was red, would you waste your time researching that perhaps it really isn’t red, when you have a clear understanding that it IS indeed, red?”
What if you were color-blind, so your perception didn’t match reality? You may think a green light is red, causing you to clog traffic. Wouldn’t you want to know? Or would you prefer to believe that everyone honking their horns at you is wrong?
18) “What exactly guided you to think that if you question the bible, it’s evil?”
I don’t believe that. I question the Bible all the time. You claim that Satan might try to convince you to learn something that contradicts the Bible. Thus, you seem to believe that learning things that contradict the Bible could be evil.
19) “And you say, “This is what those whose livelihoods depend on the Bible have convinced you to believe…” Um, no, because “those” you refer to would be humans, and Christianity is not based on what other humans try and convince us of. It’s based entirely on a one-on-one personal relationship with our Father in Heaven.”
Um, no, you state below, “I listen to wonderful teachers whom God has gifted with the means to teach His word..” So your beliefs are not “based entirely on a one-on-one personal relationship with our Father in Heaven.” Your beliefs are also influenced by these very human teachers.
20) “Yes I claim truth. God breathed it, Jesus spoke it, and I believe it and have been changed by it. Why do you think I must continue searching for it?”
Because you have no objective evidence for your “truth.” As in your red apple example, you could be totally incorrect in your beliefs, and you’d never know it. You say that your god “already gave us all the answers.” Aren’t you glad your doctor went further and searched out scientific knowledge? Would you rather he got your diagnosis from your god? If so, plenty of snake-oil hucksters would happily oblige you. If you had to choose one, would you rather place your health in the hands of Jesus, or medical science?
21) “You are missing it, and therefore keep searching.” I am seeking knowledge that I don’t have yet. I seek to fill the gaps in my understanding of the universe. Unlike your perception, mine is not flawless. I’ve learned that it is good to question my perception in order to minimize misperception. And I seek to correct myself when I am wrong. I have found that it is helpful to compare my perception against facts, and to build my beliefs on facts.
22) “I do study… but not that of which leads to nowhere. Life is too short for that.”
Life is short? What happened to that never-ending life that your god has given you?
23) “As for the good moral code remark and families who love each other and care about the planet, etc., here is a quote from http://www.livingwaters.com/witnessingtool/browse.shtml: “Jesus said that only God is good. The only “goodness,” or righteousness, that the believer has comes from Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21; Philippians 3:9). The Bible tells us that, without Christ, man is corrupt and filthy; “there is none that does good, no, not one” (Psalm 14:3).”
By that awful description of non-Christians as “corrupt and filthy,” it is clear that you have an extremely lofty opinion of yourself. How predictable that the superiority of Christians is trumpeted in a book written by – - Christians. And how convenient that you don’t require any proof of this absurd and nasty claim.
24) “[Y]ou will die… And then what Geoffrey? Food for the worms?”
Of course! Do you know of any living thing that doesn’t rot when it dies? The worms have to eat too, after all. They play a valuable role in recycling once-living material. As they eat, they aerate the ground, making it suitable for growing crops. There is no shame in being worm-food. Worms are part of the cycle of life. I will gladly commit my corpse to them, or to any other living thing that needs it. Well, maybe not roaches.
25) “In a universe that has no end, isn’t is a possiblility we only know one percent of one percent of what exists?”
Yes, if not less.
26) “Okay then, so evolved from what? How? Please explain? Are you saying that in your links you are leading us all to… that science has clearly without doubt, concluded and explained that all of the universe evolved from nothing? Because that is the only option aside from God creating the universe.”
You are incorrect. There are many other possibilities, such as these:
A) The universe has always existed, in one form or another. (My favorite.)
B) More than one god created the universe.
C) Brahma, the Hindu god of creation, created the universe.
D) The Greek goddess Gaia created the universe.
E) One of the Aztec gods created the universe.
F) One of the Celtic gods created the universe.
G) One of the Mayan gods created the universe.
H) One of the Māori gods created the universe.
I) One of the Norse gods created the universe.
J) Oprah created the universe and lives among us in her current form.
K) Some anonymous, humble god that hasn’t yet revealed itself created the universe but allows others to take all the credit.
L) Satan created the universe and allows your god to take all the credit.
M) Some combination of Norse and Hindu gods created the universe.
N) Some combination of Norse and Greek gods created the universe.
O) Norse and Greek gods created the universe with help from Satan.
And by now even you could probably come up with many more possibilities.
March 12th, 2008 at 3:10 pm
Ron’s aware of the problem, so let’s see if he can work it out. Worst case, I’ll break it up into separate posts.
March 12th, 2008 at 3:59 pm
Not sure how that smiley face got in there. It’s supposed to read ”
“
March 12th, 2008 at 4:01 pm
Oops, it happened again. It should read “8″ followed by a parenthesis. But it’s getting converted to the smiley face.
March 12th, 2008 at 6:41 pm
Geoffrey,
You think too much.
But you have wonderful, valid points it will take me a bit of time to address. I’m going to put time into this and get back to you when I can. I’ve been checking in here, anticipating your reply. Thank you for that, and stay tuned! …….
~Colleen
March 15th, 2008 at 4:01 pm
Geoffrey
I am trying hard to stay out of the discussion that you and Colleen are having because as I said earlier, I do not believe that I have the power to change your mind. Nor do I believe that you will be argued into changing your position. It will take the moving of the Holy Spirit of God in your life and your coming face to face with the truth of Christ. At that point, you will make a decision…….
Anyway, I did want to share a story with you concerning evolution and the soul of man, since that was the original topic.
This, by-the- way, much of this is copied. The squirrel story is not original with me.
Even the most ardent evolutionist behaviorally affirms that human life is distinct from animal life. Imagine Mr. Evolutionist driving along when he encounters a squirrel in the road, still writhing from being hit by a car. He slams on his brakes, jumps out of his car, and frantically dials 911 on his cell phone. “I’d like to report an injured squirrel! If the paramedics get here quickly, they may be able to save him!” But, alas, they are too late! The man sits by the squirrel corpse, sobbing, until the mortuary arrives. He will never forget this tragic scene.
Ludicrous? Yes, but change the squirrel to a human being and that scene would be truly horrific. Why? Because we all recognize that people are distinct from animals. The reason, according to the Bible, is that people are created in God’s image; animals are not.
The living soul sets us apart from animals. This is something to consider when you consider the evolutionary process. While there is change within species, evolution cannot account for the soul of man.
March 17th, 2008 at 2:52 pm
Hi Jan,
This viewpoint you describe is the same human-centered we-are-God’s-favorites snobbery toward the rest of the biological world that kept the leaders of the Southern Baptist Conference from acknowledging the threat of global warming until LAST MONDAY (http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/03/10/baptist.climate/). Too many religionists believe that we humans were put here by their god to do whatever we want to the earth and to the other creatures, because we’re just so darn special! Why are we the favorites of their god? Who knows? Your Bible only says that your god created us in his image. Why did he need a creature that looked like him? How superficial! And then that creature becomes his favorite! How narcissistic! Even if he existed, how could you worship such a disgusting being? Does he not see the beauty in a squirrel? Why does he want to banish squirrels from his eternal kingdom? What does he have against them?
True, I don’t get as upset seeing a squirrel die as I do seeing a human die, on average. But it has nothing to do with whether or not we have souls, or whose image we were supposedly created in. It has to do with my empathy toward that person’s friends and family. I assume that they must be extremely sad having lost this person, and I feel sad for them. I find myself feeling sad also for the loss of family pets. And I feel sadder at the loss of someone’s beloved pet than I feel for the loss of Saddam, despite the fact that Saddam, according to your religion, had a soul and was created in your god’s image. Which would make you sadder? Given the choice of whose life to spare, would you choose Saddam’s over a loving family dog’s?
And finally, just for my information, are families allowed to reunite with their family pets in heaven?
By the way, my mind is open to the possibility that a god or gods exist. All I require is evidence. It would be extremely simple for your god to at least get me thinking that maybe he existed. I would meet with him anytime. All he has to do is show up and do a few miracles. If you had a son that you wanted to connect with, wouldn’t you show yourself? Or at the very least, make a phone call? Something direct like that? It seems this would be much more convincing than hiding behind a tree and asking someone else to deliver notes to the kid, and expecting him to know that you wrote them and to love you without having met you. This is the same as the supposed gods who have preachers/priests/mullahs/shamans serve as their intermediaries. Why would a god need a middle-man?
March 19th, 2008 at 7:55 am
Jan – I replied a few days ago, but it’s awaiting moderation.
March 19th, 2008 at 7:35 pm
Dear Geoffrey,
A little time has passed, and i’m still not sure where to start. I realize, debates exhaust me. I’m not good at them, and typically don’t want to get into them… Yet I’ve really enjoyed this correspondence so far and have loved the challenge it’s posed for me. I want to do my research, but there is soooooo much to find, so much to look into, and so many points i have to make to the so many points you will continue to make. I’m not really feeling like that is the route for me to take. But i definitely want to say something to you…
We are so tiny in a huge universe. We know so little, but God gave us enough information in His word. He answers all our questions in the bible. This is God’s claim: He is the author and the creator of the universe. And to take that as truth, just makes sense! He is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. He always has been and always will be. It’s so hard for a tiny mind like ours to comprehend something so great, so huge. It’s hard to imagine eternity, and it’s hard to imagine space going on forever. And even if space ended somewhere, what’s on the other side of that? Since there is so much that we may never understand until we face God and ask Him, isn’t it much simpler to just trust Him? I think so. He gives us rules, and order, He gives us guidelines to follow, that richly bless us when we do. Like a parent raising up their child in the ways that are right, so God does this for us.
I seek and find refuge in believing in Him and trusting in Him, because the overall plan in the scriptures fits together perfectly, from the very beginning (in Genesis) to the end that is to come. (in Revelation, when Christ returns and defeats Satan once and for all).
This is a story of love. Period. Whatever bad things you find in the scriptures, you really need to understand the bible as a whole before picking apart pieces of it, and basing your judgement on those pieces. Jesus never killed anyone. Jesus never did ANYTHING considered as evil. He came to love. And His love followed Him to the cross. For you Geoffrey, and for me.
It sounds like a far-fetched story on the surface, but once you dive into it, you are drawn in, and you realize you are a major player in the plan of God’s, who loves us each individually.
Jesus promises to manifest Himself in those that seek Him and put their trust in Him. TO THOSE THAT SEEK HIM, and i stress that part.
My prayer for you is, that you will approach God and ask Him to open your eyes and your heart. Just say to Him, ‘God, I WANT to know TRUTH. If that truth is you, start to move inside of me and bring me to know your Son Jesus. ‘Seek God and His plan for you, with an honest open heart, and you will be given your proof.
I hope i come in here one day and see the awesome testimony of an atheist/agnostic, come to share his story of being converted and receiving a transformed and ever-changing heart by the love of His savior Jesus. I pray for that. I’m not through, I will keep an eye open in here and continue praying. God’s will is for you to receive Him, and if we pray according to His will, I believe it will be done.
In Christian love,
~Colleen
Chew on this:
Amazing grace
How sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me
I once was lost, but now I’m found
Was blind, but now I see
‘Twas grace that taught my heart to fear
And grace my fears relieved
How precious did that grace appear
The hour I first believed
My chains are gone
I’ve been set free
My God, my Savior has ransomed me
And like a flood His mercy reigns
Unending love, Amazing grace
The Lord has promised good to me
His word my hope secures
He will my shield and portion be
As long as life endures
The earth shall soon dissolve like snow
The sun forbear to shine
But God, Who called me here below
Will be forever mine
Will be forever mine
You are forever mine
March 20th, 2008 at 5:49 am
I’m gonna jump back in. I’ve scan some of the debate over the last 2 months, but it would take another week read it all.
Geoffrey, you want “evidence” of a creator. Yet the very things you cling too as proof there is no creator (science and nature) prove there is. I’ll agree it’s not proof of the God of the Bible — but it is proof of something what can design, create, sustain. For that there is a ton of evidence in archeology, voluminous manuscript evidence, and prophesy (which only convinces someone once you’ve studied the manuscript evidence).
I can’t tell if you just want to debate, or if you really want to learn. If you want to learn there are many that pass by here that are willing to help you do just that. You may not realize it, but many have given you the same advice to pray and seek God. Up until know, it seems you are just standing there in God’s front yard yelling at him to come out of the house. Not the best approach. The Bible says to humble yourself and God will exhaust you.
Why humble yourself? Because you are a sinner (law breaker). You (like anyone else reading this far down) have broken God’s law knowingly or have sinned against your own God given conscience. God, in his grace, has brought you that information here. You can repent (turn from your sin) and put your faith (and you have tons – we’ve all seen that) in God and the atoning sacrifice of His Son, Jesus Christ.
We are a few days away from celebrating that atonement and resurrection, Geoffrey. You should find a Bible believing church and go worship the God you continue to rail against. Repent of your sin and receive forgiveness.
I’m not asking for your blind faith. You’ll have a lifetime to find the answers to your questions. Questions evolution doesn’t even try to address.
March 21st, 2008 at 9:53 am
Regarding dogs in Heaven, i’ve had many serious thoughts on the subject. It ails me to think i may not see my beloved pets in Heaven, but then i encountered this in Romans chapter 8:18-22:
“For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now…”
***
The bible states that CREATION awaits, not just MAN, to be set free into glory.
So to answer your question, I personally believe dogs go to Heaven.
March 21st, 2008 at 2:15 pm
Hello Geoffrey,
I read what you wrote to Jan and i have a few remarks i can’t sit by and not address. (Jan, please forgive me if i’m rude jumping in on your conversation).
You wrote:
***”This viewpoint you describe is the same human-centered we-are-God’s-favorites snobbery toward the rest of the biological world that kept the leaders of the Southern Baptist Conference from acknowledging the threat of global warming until LAST MONDAY “***
God doesn’t play favorites, and it is not snobbery as you indicate. It would be snobbery if Christians said, “HA HA, we have salvation and you don’t, and you never can nor will!” You are making the conscious choice not to accept Jesus. So it’s just the opposite. If we Christians were snobs, do you think we would care about you at all, to even have these discussions with you? It is compassion we extend to you, not snobbery.
(and i personally won’t get into the ridiculous Al Gore/global warming thing.)
You also wrote:
***”Why did he need a creature that looked like him? How superficial! And then that creature becomes his favorite! How narcissistic! Even if he existed, how could you worship such a disgusting being?”***
This was just an awful, awful statement. It hurts my heart and soul to see someone so blindly mistaken, call God a ‘disgusting being.’ Jesus endured torture and death for you, even though you look upon Him this way. So very sad. Did you know when they were beating Jesus and hanging Him on the cross, He continued to pray for them? He asked God “to forgive them, for they know not what they do.” Talk about love and compassion! I pray He extends that to you.
God delights in His creation. Superficial? No. Are you superficial if you want your children to resemble you? He made YOU in His image too. You are loved by Him, even though you won’t accept Him. God doesn’t claim favorites anywhere in scripture, that i am aware of. God loves ALL of His created ones, but only those that obey His commands (accepting/trusting in Jesus and repenting), get to share eternity with Him. You still have a choice here! You hold the playing card, not Him. If you reject Him, it is your own fault.
More from you:
“By the way, my mind is open to the possibility that a god or gods exist. All I require is evidence. It would be extremely simple for your god to at least get me thinking that maybe he existed. I would meet with him anytime. All he has to do is show up and do a few miracles. If you had a son that you wanted to connect with, wouldn’t you show yourself?”
I knew someone who once said, “If God exists, why doesn’t He reveal Himself to me?” And i asked my pastor who said w/o missing a beat, “Because he isn’t the center of the universe.” His point was, because God already DID show up to man. He did plenty of miracles, and still does today. You think He owes YOU more? What makes you so special that God needs to do more to make you believe in Him? Was sending His son to die so brutally, not enough for you? What more do you really desire? If he forced Himself upon you, it would not be love. He gives each of us the choice and free will to choose to trust in Him or not. He did more than enough for me to believe, over 2000 years ago, and still continues blessing me life. I owe Him my entire heart and soul for what He did for me, and that is what i give to Him. He did more for me that i ever deserved, could ever deserve or ever can repay.
I can see why you can’t believe in God, since your attitude towards Him is that of arrogance. You have no humility but heaps of pride. I don’t understand why, considering you are the one who is rejecting Him, not the other way around. Like Ron said, it’s about humbling oneself. Only then can you be exposed for Him, for Him to reveal Himself more to you.
March 21st, 2008 at 2:45 pm
PS–
It’s Good Friday. I have some time on my hands. We are looking forward to heading to our church for Good Friday service. This weekend is such a wonderful reminder of Jesus, His life, His death, and His resurrection. I am my Beloveds and He is mine!
Geoffrey, I wanted to answer a few of your previous questions…….
***In order for me to better understand the process of becoming a Christian, let’s break it down. Step 1 would be to “put your faith in Jesus.” Step 2 is when your god gives you the thoughts and ideas that allow you to know that you’ve chosen right. Do I understand correctly?***
Yes, sounds correct to me!
***Regarding Step 1: How exactly does one put one’s faith in Jesus? If I wanted to do that, how would I go about it?***
Start by praying. I posted it above… just humble yourself in prayer to God. Seek Him with your heart and desire to know His truth. Second, please read a bible. I think a terrific starting place is the book of John (4th book in the New Testament). God will do the rest.
***2) “[H]ow does one show evidence of a transforming heart?***
I can’t answer that, you can only find our for yourself. See the answer to step one again.
Back to evolution…
***And what “missing links” are you talking about?***
The ones that link me to a banana.
***A) What exactly does it mean to “take on” the sins of the world? This term is vague. Please clarify. How exactly does one go about “taking on” sin?
God appointed Jesus to die on behalf of man’s sins. He pays the debt of sin for those who trust Him. When i stand before God after i die, i have a mediator between me and God’s judgement of my sin. That is Jesus, so He took on my sin so i didn’t have to be found guilty. He did this for everyone, but only those that believe in Him get to be excused.
***B) How does a sin die? Is sin alive? How do we know? How do we know when sin is dead?***
All of us sin, so sin is alive. We know by looking at the world around us.
***C) If your god is all-powerful, why did he have to have Jesus killed? Why not just kill the sin?***
God wanted to enjoy those that truly love Him. That is why He gave us free will. If He forced us all to love Him, it would all be peachy but we’d all be no different from programmed robots. He doesn’t just correct all our mistakes, by killing our sin. Again, we’d be nothing more than programmed robots if He did!
***D) If killing Jesus was necessary, why did your god not just do it himself? Why get the Romans and the Jews to do his dirty work, bringing hatred up them?***
You need to learn the whole story.
***According to the Bible, your god had certainly done his share of killing before.***
You need to learn the whole story.
***E) Why do Christians not revere the Romans and Jews, and Judas as well, for being the implementers of your god’s Great Plan?***
This question is a bunny trail question. It’s irrevelant, and i can’t speak for all Christians and what they revere, or not.
***“God knew I’d never make it on my own…”
Why not?***
Because I am a sinner.
***Have you ever studied the history of the Bible itself? I strongly suggest that you do. You will find that humans decided which of the gospels to include and which to exclude.***
God claims to protect His word and I believe Him. It’s a perfect book–a perfect story from beginning to end. It took hundreds of years to write, which no one could pull off such a perfect story other than one brilliant author. (yes, GOD silly!)
***Um, no, you state below, “I listen to wonderful teachers whom God has gifted with the means to teach His word..” So your beliefs are not “based entirely on a one-on-one personal relationship with our Father in Heaven.” Your beliefs are also influenced by these very human teachers.***
God appoints certain ‘men’ to help teach us. I can’t pick up a calculus book and just know everything. You learn thru the Calculus teacher, who teaches the book.
***“Yes I claim truth. God breathed it, Jesus spoke it, and I believe it and have been changed by it. Why do you think I must continue searching for it?”
Because you have no objective evidence for your “truth.” ***
Because I’m not searching for objective evidence. The evidence lives in my heart, and i also happen to believe in history.
***24) “[Y]ou will die… And then what Geoffrey? Food for the worms?”
Of course! Do you know of any living thing that doesn’t rot when it dies?***
Okay, i meant JUST food for the worms? Yes, our flesh will rot, but our souls live on. Our souls continue forever in Heaven or Hell.
March 21st, 2008 at 2:46 pm
Geoffrey,
Sorry that I missed your post until a few minutes ago.
Personally, your answer seemed to me like a diversion. The question I was posing was not about why God made man in His image (this is involves something much deeper than “looking like Him”), but rather whether evolution is reliable as a theory for the origin of man.
As for your supposition concerning God, you said, “I would meet with him anytime. All he has to do is show up and do a few miracles.”
May I tell you that He has already done this and many did believe.
John 2:11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.
John 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
John 3:2 The same (Nicodemus) came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him
John 6:2 And a great multitude followed him, because they saw his miracles which he did on them that were diseased.
Jesus, however, said that it is when we meet Him and have our need met by Him, that we will seek Him.
John 6:26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
Geoffrey, the bottom line for you is this:
Rev. 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Geoffrey, why don’t you get alone somewhere and prayerfully read the book of the Gospel of John found in the new testament of the Bible.
Remember “whosoever” includes you.
March 21st, 2008 at 5:26 pm
Colleen, Jan, and Ron,
Learn how to prove something. Your saying it doesn’t make it so. The Bible saying it doesn’t make it so. If you had been raised in Saudi Arabia, you’d be good little Muslims, and you’d be quoting from the Koran. I will address your other points later.
March 22nd, 2008 at 7:48 am
Geoffrey,
Thank you for your response. You are absolutely correct when you state that saying so doesn’t make something true.
Many times people do believe the religion of their fathers. Having being born in a country, however, does not always mean that a person will adhere to the religion primarily taught there or that we will always believe what we are taught as a child. Dr. Michael Youssef who is now a minister at the Church of the Apostles in Atlanta was born in a Muslim country and once a Muslim. Madelyn Murray O’Hare’s son was taught atheism, but he became a minister of the gospel of Christ. There are thousands of other examples.
As for the ‘believing only what you have proof of’ part of your philosophy, please realize that none of us do this. We all live by faith. I did not know if the last plane that I boarded would actually be able to fly me safely from Miami to Atlanta, but I boarded it anyway. I wasn’t sure that the chair I sit in would hold me up until I tried it or if the medical treatment prescribed to me would help. The Bible teaches that we live by faith. II Corinthians states: “For we walk by faith, not by sight:” If this is true in the physical world, how much more does it hold true in the spiritual world. When God draws us unto Himself and we respond in faith, our journey begins, but you are correct that it does not begin with proof. It begins with faith. Jesus said, “If you have faith as a tiny grain of mustard seed…”
March 25th, 2008 at 9:57 am
Geoffrey,
Your saying, “The Bible saying it, doesn’t make it so,” does not make what you say so either!
We’re down to, it’s your word, versus our word, versus God’s word. Who do you think you should believe? Faulty man? Or a divine God?
The reality is this… you are here. You were created for a purpose. You are going to die. It could be any time. Think about that. If you died today without trusting in Jesus, it would be too late for you to change your mind. Sadly, you would stand before Him and hear Him tell you to depart, that He never knew you. The bible says every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. That is powerful. Each and every human will face Him when they die, and confess He is Lord. Of course many non-believers will believe then, but it’s too late. God gives you the chance to know Him while you are here and alive.
The thing is, if you really knew the scriptures, you would absolutely believe in them. The prophesies that have been fulfilled are remarkable, not a coincidence. And it makes sense. I keep stressing that. I only know a small amount of scripture, but know enough to believe in them because the story as a whole is that of brilliance. How did Isaiah know 700 years before Jesus, exactly who the messiah was? He described Jesus perfectly. That is just one prophetic example. There are so many in the bible! Look around you today… Many of the “end times” prophesies being fulfilled around us. It’s scary and fascinating at the same time.
Besides, whose belief is better… yours, that basically gives no purpose to life, or the Christians, that believe in life eternal in glory with our Creator who loves us?
If Christians wrong, at least we live with hope on earth of the eternal life spent with a beautiful God in a perfect kingdom. If you are wrong, you spend forever in darkness, apart from God where evil dwells.
Do you realize that?
April 4th, 2008 at 11:32 am
Sorry, I’ve been deluged and haven’t come up for air in a few weeks. Now I can see the light at the end of the tunnel, and I should be able to reply in the next few days.
April 4th, 2008 at 8:45 pm
Hi Geoffrey, Glad to know that you are still out there.
April 6th, 2008 at 7:14 am
hey geoffrey, look forward to hearing from you!
April 8th, 2008 at 2:18 pm
Hi all – I’m glad too that you’re still here. I’ve enjoyed our discussion. It’s not often that people have the opportunity to debate religion in much depth and with civility.
In light of many of your postings, it seems important to clarify what is meant by the term “believe.” For example, Colleen said, “You are making the conscious choice not to accept Jesus.” But this is not true. I do not choose my beliefs. My beliefs are shaped by the evidence. They are independent of what I want. If I needed a ride and wanted to believe that a cat was a horse, I couldn’t rationally do it. Even if someone promised me eternal life if I believed it, and eternal damnation if I didn’t, I couldn’t possibly believe that a cat was a horse. It’s not arrogance, but my honest view of reality. After evaluating all the evidence that I have found thus far in my life, I can come to no other conclusion but that there is not god, no Satan, no heaven, and no hell. If I’m wrong, and if I am sent to hell, I’ll go an honest man. I cannot state as true something that I believe is untrue. If that is what your god demands, then I’d rather go to hell than spend eternity with him, which would for me be an even worse hell. Meanwhile, in whatever time I have left on this earth, I will happily continue to reach conclusions through careful, logical study. Belief is not a choice.
April 9th, 2008 at 8:25 am
hey geoffrey!
first of all, i want to say that i also enjoy this “debate”, however, i personally, am not here for the purpose of debating, but rather, to share the gospel of Jesus Christ to anyone willing to listen. another proof of true conversion–that one who has Christ dwelling in them cannot help but remain silent about the awesomeness of Christianity and serving a God who so deeply loves us. i would hope you would find nothing less than “civility” in a Christian forum. i am not driven by aspiring to remain civil, i am driven solely out of love for those who do not know their personal Savior, Jesus. i remain prayerfully considerate of your feelings and beliefs, and understand it is God’s will for you to belong to Him and be a part of His glorious kingdom for eternity. i truly believe that over time your heart will soften and become more open to the presence of God who is patiently waiting for you to allow Him to come into your life and transform your heart into the likeness of His Son. i believe you do not have understanding, because their are blinders on you, keeping you from seeing the truth so boldly presented before you. time and prayer will change that, as it is God’s will for you! that’s awesome! and yeah yeah on the cat/horse analogy. there are so many factors to look into to lead you away from the truth. do you have a bible? if not, get a hold of one. read it online if necessary… but again, jan and i have both encouraged you to start by reading the book of John (4th book in the new testament). please, go against your own beliefs for a moment and just give it a shot to go ahead and pray to the one true God in heaven, asking Him to reveal himself to you as you read His words. just step outside of your own understanding and comfort zone and start with a little faith and trust that a God so magnificent who claims He loves you, will actually remove the scales form your eyes as you sincerely seek the truth. that is the very best i can advise. you sound sincere in your quest for truth and knowledge, and i believe you are willing to do this. i believe you will begin acknowledging something greater than your own understanding and realy witness the change in your own heart. please do this? it won’t take a long time. you have the time to give it a go, and i pray you will. open your heart to let God work in you, IN CASE HE IS REAL, right? you have nothing to lose by doing so. you have soooo much to gain.
in the love of Jesus,
~colleen
April 9th, 2008 at 8:30 am
here you are… try this. don’t forget to sincerely ask God to open your eyes and your heart before you begin to read:
http://www.devotions.net/bible/43john.htm
April 9th, 2008 at 12:43 pm
Colleen, your “yeah yeah on the cat/horse analogy” confirms your statement that you are not interested in discussing the issues of faith.
April 9th, 2008 at 2:23 pm
the cat/horse analogy isn’t based on faith outside of your statement. you stated that because your real argument is based on rational logic and ultimately back to proof.
April 9th, 2008 at 2:55 pm
Colleen – Huh?
April 9th, 2008 at 4:33 pm
Colleen, I wish you and/or others would address my point that belief is not a choice. You are the one who stated, “You are making the conscious choice not to accept Jesus.” As I said above, it is not a choice. I would appreciate responders focusing on this very key point.
April 9th, 2008 at 6:32 pm
i’ll try my best to address it in depth sometime tomorrow.
April 10th, 2008 at 12:00 pm
GK. I’m not sure you’ll like my answer, but here’s my quick stab at it. All of us choose to “believe” something at some point. Another way of putting it is saying “I conclude…” But in the context of this discussion, it can be a distraction to focus solely on whether we are using the context correctly. Scripture says that faith is a gift. Is belief the same as having faith? If so, you may be right, you can’t choose to believe on your own. For me (as I’ve stated before) I studied the archaeological, prophetic and statistical data and concluded that the Bible is believable. Did I believe in God before I did my homework? Yes. But that was by choice. The evidence now overwhelms me to the point beyond reasonable doubt that I no longer consider belief a choice either. In this case my belief is a result of my conclusion.
Some see the evidence and yet still deny what is before them. Why? Are they willfully ignorant? Are they blinded by God? Satan? Pride? Fear? That’s one I don’t think any of us can answer.
But God does promise and all of us can testify that when we asked God to open any blindness in our own lives, he’s been faithful do it. Asking God sincerely “if you exist, allow me to know the truth so I might serve you” is a prayer he promises to answer. However, you have said time and time again if God exists he’s not the kind of God you want to serve anyway. But I’m drifting beyond the answer you requested. I’ll stop here for now.
April 10th, 2008 at 2:44 pm
geoffrey,
i do believe, beliefs are a choice. i believe this because God makes it clear we are created with a free-will to choose. you can choose to believe a murderer isn’t a bad guy if they felt they were murdering for a good cause, or you can hold to the belief that killing is wrong, period. that killing is bad and by doing so it makes you a bad guy. (sorry–i’m not the best at analogies, but you get my drift.)
you choose which way you want to believe.
not a put-down here, but you lack knowledge in scriptures, therefore your heart is not being receptive to God’s offer. please don’t get me wrong, you certainly don’t have to know your bible before “being saved”, as some folks are saved on a whim of something particular happening in their life that pushed them to Jesus. God has is own ways and means by which He calls His chosen to Him.
you are here, you are asking questions, you are searching, and i think you genuinely desire truth. see, my “belief” is you sincerely want to know the truth. i choose to believe this based all your posts, it doesn’t just so happen to be my belief about you, it’s my choice based on what i see and know, based on what you have revealed.
i just happen to know what the truth is that you need.
i am praying for you. i really am. i’m just praying that you fall head first and hard into the love of God……..
April 10th, 2008 at 2:46 pm
btw, i said that about scriptures, because if you read them, you would start to see a beautiful, promising picture unfold. like ron, you would start to see the overwhelming evidence in favor of God.
i forgot to include that.
April 11th, 2008 at 11:56 am
Ron – I would put your experience this way: Before you “did your homework,” you had a belief based on little information. It became a better-informed belief after you studied the matter. In both cases, it was a conclusion you reached based on the evidence that you observed.
“Some see the evidence and yet still deny what is before them. Why? Are they willfully ignorant? Are they blinded by God? Satan? Pride? Fear?”
I agree. In my observations, it is usually due to fear – the fear of being wrong. An honest man or woman accepts whatever the evidence shows, with the understanding that it could be proven wrong later. When asked about their opinion, they would say, “I believe X, Y, and Z, based on this evidence. I believe this evidence is unlikely to be proven wrong later, but that is a distinct possibility. For now, I will base my actions on what appears to be the truth.” Why should such a person be criticized, or worse, suffer eternal burning in hell? Yet, many religionists are taught that hell is just punishment for such a reasonable person. They are taught that there is something so vile in this person, so inexcusable, that they deserve extreme punishment. This is a hateful belief. This person has done nothing but be reasonable.
Colleen – Your analogy is a good one: “you can choose to believe a murderer isn’t a bad guy if they felt they were murdering for a good cause, or you can hold to the belief that killing is wrong, period.”
This issue of killing is, of course a gray area. But one’s beliefs about it are nevertheless based on what he/she believes is true. An observer may believe that a killer is always a bad person. But if shown evidence that the killer killed in self defense and later did many good works, the observer may change his/her mind. One’s beliefs should be shaped by the evidence. If the evidence later becomes stronger in the opposite direction, an honest person accepts the stronger evidence, always with the understanding that the evidence could someday swing back in the other direction. A belief should always be founded in reason. By definition, a belief not founded in reason is unreasonable.
Colleen, please address this point: If belief is a choice, then, going back to my cat/horse analogy, you should be able to believe that a cat is a horse, simply by choosing that belief. I can’t do it. Can you?
By the way, Colleen, I’m not as ignorant of the bible as you make me out to be. I have read much of the Bible, possibly all of it but I don’t know for sure. In my postings above, I have referred to Biblical passages many times.
April 12th, 2008 at 9:01 am
good morning all! i’m up and at ‘em early. i love coming in here to see your posts. i pray God will give me the right things to say, that will sink deep into the hearts of ANY skeptics who may read in here.
geoffrey, to answer your question…. no. i would not choose to believe a cat is a horse, because evidence clearly reveals otherwise. same with the scriptures–they reveal the real evidence of God. you may have read heaps of scriptures, but for some reason you are hardened in your heart to believing them.
i love the story of the apostle paul. he hated christians! i mean, he hated them. he had them killed. until one day, he was riding on his donkey, and a light came down and struck him to the ground. he was blinded and taken into the home of one he knew. God then called a man of great faith (ananias) to go to him. he went to the house paul was staying at, terrified for his life, and approached paul. he laid hands on him and prayed for him, and scales literally fell from his eyes. his sight was restored, but not only that, he became a man of great faith also until his death. of course, anyone would believe under those circumstances, and miracles like that aren’t heard of today, but my point is… God revealed Himself to a man so hardened, so opposite of what one would expect in a man that God would choose to use. (so there is hope for you yet!
) paul was one of the greatest authors, attesting to the man of Jesus Christ. for me, personally, it was the teachings on paul that gave me the heart knowledge of who Jesus is. i had it in my head for years, but when i realized that Jesus came because He loves us, died for each of us because He loves us, and i learned thru scripture that there is nothing i can do that will take me away from the love of God, it sank deep into my heart. i was relieved and overjoyed about our God who loves us so much! i’m not good enough for heaven. no one is. i’m destined for hell, except that Jesus took on my punishment in my place, and by my believing that, i’m sealed in his “book of life.” God is not hateful because souls go to hell. that is looking at the glass half empty. God is gracious for saving souls from due judgement. that is looking at the glass being half full. have you read the book of john yet? (i don’t know if you saw the link i left above). i also love romans (written by paul). maybe try that.
you know, there is irony in all of this. you want proof. yet, you yourself have demonstrated proof, based on what the bible says. look closely at these verses which are talking about non-believers:
***
Job 21:14 Therefore they say unto God, Depart from us; for we desire not the knowledge of thy ways.
Psalms 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalms 82:5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
Proverbs 1:22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
Proverbs 2:13-14 Who leave the paths of uprightness, to walk in the ways of darkness; Who rejoice to do evil, and delight in the frowardness of the wicked;
Proverbs 4:19 The way of the wicked is as darkness: they know not at what they stumble.
Proverbs 14:9 Fools make a mock at sin: but among the righteous there is favour.
Proverbs 16:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. (Prov 14:12)
Isaiah 6:9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
Isaiah 44:18 They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand.
Jeremiah 7:27 Therefore thou shalt speak all these words unto them; but they will not hearken to thee: thou shalt also call unto them; but they will not answer thee.
Zechariah 7:12-13 Yea, they made their hearts as an adamant stone, lest they should hear the law, and the words which the LORD of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from the LORD of hosts. Therefore it is come to pass, that as he cried, and they would not hear; so they cried, and I would not hear, saith the LORD of hosts:
Matthew 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
Matthew 13:14-15 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. (Isa 6:9)
Matthew 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
Luke 22:67 Art thou the Christ? tell us. And he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe:
John 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
John 3:19-20 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
John 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.
John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
John 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
John 12:37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Romans 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
2 Corinthians 3:14-16 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away.
2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Ephesians 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
Ephesians 4:19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Hebrews 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
James 1:14-15 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
2 Peter 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
2 Peter 3:3-4 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
2 Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
1 John 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
***
i realize not all of those verses may seem very nice. but the good news is, you have a choice to NOT being one of those fools!
April 12th, 2008 at 9:24 am
Let me also add that you are not condemned because of a lack of knowledge or understanding but because you have sinned knowingly against your conscience and against a Holy God. We all have. Therefore we all deserve His just punishment. But in His incredible grace and mercy, He provided a way that his lost lambs might be saved. Either way, God will be glorified, either by the conversion of humble sinners or by the punishment of those who truly deserve it. But I know, you think think the punishment is too harsh. But that is because you think too highly of yourself and lack understanding of how incredibly holy God is and how egregious sin is against Him. Punishments are not based only on the offense, but on who was offended. As I think I’ve said before, the punishment for killing a dog is less than killing the President.
April 12th, 2008 at 8:29 pm
Hi Geoffrey,
I have been away. Two things happened to me this past week.
For one thing, I lost someone very close to me. I suppose everyone has a special or best friend. I know that I did. In high school and as a freshman in college we spent most of our time together. She and I were as close as sisters and in some ways, closer. Three weeks ago, as far as we knew, she was healthy. This week she died. I have to tell you that even though we are much older and death is not that uncommon as a person ages, it still has a startling effect. If I did not know that one day we will be together again, I do not think I could bear the pain of losing loved ones.
Another thing that happened was, I read a book I have not read before called “90 Minutes In Heaven”. I recommend it to you. While I already knew about the glories of heaven, it is reassuring to have a comtemporary describe being there. I wonder if this isn’t what happened to the apostle Paul when he talks about being in heaven for a time.
Geoffrey, you said that you would not want to go to heaven to be with a God who would send an “honest man” to hell for not believing in Him. But the Bible says that God does not do this. The Bible says that He will confront each of us at some point with the truth. Consider this:
Romans 1:21 KJV
Because that, WHEN THEY KNEW GOD, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened .
It also states that:
Psalms 19:1 KJV
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork .
and
Psalms 97:6 KJV
The heavens declare his righteousness, and all the people see his glory.
I just ask you to take a step of faith and pray that God will reveal Himself to you in a way that Colleen, Ron, and I cannot do. When He does, trust Him.
Jan
April 13th, 2008 at 9:59 am
For Jan:
“To My Best Friend” by Margaret Cook of Middlebury, IN
I wish you weren’t so far away,
I love you more than words can say.
We met when we were in first grade.
Hopscotch, jump rope and tag we played.
At recess time we traded lunch,
Walked home in winter’s snowy crunch.
Each other’s secrets we did keep,
The trust we had was true and deep.
The boys we loved became young men,
Down wedding aisles we followed them.
Beside your grave I stand today
And hope that you can hear me say
If I could do it all again,
I’d still choose you for my best friend.
April 13th, 2008 at 10:18 am
Colleen – It would be helpful if you could summarize your thoughts, rather than referring me to a thousand different verses in the Bible.
You did not quite answer my question. I asked you if you COULD believe that a cat was a horse, not if you WOULD. This is an important question, because you are claiming that belief is a choice, which I disagree with. If belief is in fact a choice, then you should be able to switch beliefs simply by choosing. So, I ask again, are you able to believe that a cat is a horse? Can you switch to that belief for a minute, a day, a week, and then switch back?
Colleen & Ron – You did not deny that you have been taught that non-Christians are so vile that they deserve the worst possible punishment. So much for Christian love.
April 13th, 2008 at 12:41 pm
Geoffrey,
Thank you for the poem. It means so much to me and I have to tell you that it brought tears. I appreciate your compassion and kindness.
Understanding that your last comment was to Ron and Colleen, please forgive me for jumping in, and permit me to say that it isn’t just non-Christians who deserve separation from God, which is what hell actually is. The difference in a Christian and non-Christian isn’t that one is a far greater sinner than the other. Sometimes this is the case when a person totally rejects God and allows Satan to have free reign in his or her life, but often a non-christian leads a moral life. The problem is that non of us are truly good. We all have a sin nature. We have all gone astray. Without God, we have no hope of ever over coming this sin nature.
Paul wrote in Romans chapter 3 verses 11 and 12 that there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. This includes all of mankind.
Geoffrey, the beauty of Christ is that he clothes those who will receive Him in His own righteousness. While it is true that we are capable of doing a good deed or deeds while on this earth, we often do them for selfish or wrong reasons. We will inevitably commit sin, when we go our own way. I am not saying that all our deeds are sinful, but that our nature is sinful and we have need of restoration before God. Christ does this for us. He will cleanse us and present us to the Father as if we had never sinned because He became sin for us at Calvary. He stated, “…but for this cause came I unto this hour.” What was he referring to, the cross. He willingly left heavens glory to make a bridge for us to cross from death to life eternal and to destroy the works of Satan. (I John 3:8) Personally, I think that many people believe that because God can do all things, all things are easy. I am not so sure that is right. I believe that if there had been any other way, God would have provided it. When He loved us enough to become one of us and die for us, He paid the price and bought us with His blood. I want you to receive Him and His gift of life.
Jesus also said, “I came that you might have life, and have it more abundantly.” John 10:10
April 13th, 2008 at 8:31 pm
Nice poem GK. Very nice.
You wrote: “You did not deny that you have been taught that non-Christians are so vile that they deserve the worst possible punishment. So much for Christian love.”
I think you again are missing my point. It’s not the “non-Christian.” It’s any who have sinned. And we have all sinned thousands of times. Then there’s the unmeasurable holiness and purity of God… sit them side by side and you begin to see the reasonableness of Hell. Let me be perfectly clear, if I stand before God and he said, “Ron, I’m sending you to Hell.” I’d be fully accepting of that sentence, knowing it is what I deserve. And that’s not what I was taught. I grew up Methodist in the mid-west. We didn’t talk much about hell or even Jesus from what I can remember. I’d like to think I just didn’t pay much attention.
But the beauty of Hell comes at the cross – where God in his grace allowed His Son to die in my place so that my debt might be paid. The more severe the punishment, the more deserved the punishment the greater the grace, the more praise for my Saviour.
But those are just words to you. At least right now. But our prayer is that the Holy Spirit will open your eyes and allow you to see the truth. The truth of your own state and the reality of God. There have been bigger skeptics than you Geoffrey who are now born-again. Seek the truth. It’s there.
April 14th, 2008 at 8:16 am
jan,
i’m very sorry to learn of your loss. but like you know, there is SO much comfort in KNOWING you will be reunited with your friend. peace of Christ to you!
that is the beauty in being a believer–that you will see your loved ones again who share the beliefs in Jesus Christ, our saviour and deliverer. i would shoot myself in the head if i had to go thru this life with no hope of seeing those i love again, with no hope beyond the here and now. how dreadful to even think about.
geoffrey, you have a compassionate heart–a quality born of the image of your maker. that poem was lovely. how sweet of you to share that.
geoffrey, i want to back up. please answer the following:
1) did you read the book of john yet?
2) did you even try asking God to reveal Himself to you, with true faith in your heart that there just might be some truth to all of this?
3) do you believe the bible holds any truth at all?
i’ll respond more once i know.
April 14th, 2008 at 4:51 pm
Colleen,
Let us please answer questions in turn. I asked you a question twice that you have not answered. I will happily answer your questions once you have answered mine, which I repeat again: Are you able to believe that a cat is a horse? Can you switch to that belief for a minute, a day, a week, and then switch back?
April 14th, 2008 at 9:34 pm
Ron – The fact remains that you have been taught, and you teach others, that non-Christians deserve extreme punishment. It doesn’t matter WHY you were taught that, or why you teach that.
April 15th, 2008 at 7:00 am
Geoffrey, If we are presented with a choice of whom we will serve, would that make more sense to you than asking you to believe something that is difficult for you to believe?
Here is what I mean: In Joshua 24:15 the people were asked to make this choice. It reads, “Choose ye this day whom ye will serve, but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”
May I suggest that we all serve something or someone. We will dedicate ourselves to what we see as important.
With this in mind, consider the opposing forces in this world. There is:
light
April 15th, 2008 at 7:13 am
I did not intend to hit post, please excuse! ;*{
There is: light and darkness, good and evil, love and hate, life and death, truth and lies, to name a few. The God of the Bible is a described as light, salt, goodness, love, life, and truth.
When you think of the choices God wants us to make, we know that the right way is to choose those characteristics that belong to God. Christ came into the world that we might be able to choose Him and in doing so, we are choosing life. We do, however, have to repent in order to be saved. Repentance means turning from our way and the way our sinful nature carries us and turning to God and His way. When I was a child, I thought repentance meant feeling sorry for our sins. This is involved, but it is more than just sorrow. It is a turning, a “choosing” if you will.
The Bible says that to come to the Lord we must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. If you are willing to choose to serve the Lord, the truth will be made much clearer to you. God loves you enough to accept you even if you are having difficulty with your faith. If you choose to serve Him, He will clear up the rest for you and make trusting easy.
I hope this helps and doesn’t confuse you. I know what I am trying to say, but I am not sure that I made it clear.
April 15th, 2008 at 8:03 am
here’s a great illustration of the purpose of Jesus in our lives:
http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=ee73e63418003b47d7d5
back in a bit to address geoffrey’s question.
April 15th, 2008 at 10:07 am
GK wrote: “Ron – The fact remains that you have been taught, and you teach others, that non-Christians deserve extreme punishment. It doesn’t matter WHY you were taught that, or why you teach that.”
I teach as scripture teaches that ALL fall short of the Glory of God. All have sinned. All are deserving of Hell and God’s wrath. That includes me, Jan, Colleen, and you.
It does matter why. If you don’t understand the reasonableness of Hell, you misunderstand not only God’s character but your own. So in answer to your question; yes, I have been taught (or learned) that from scripture. And I teach it to others. But I also teach God’s grace and mercy to those who are willing to repent of their sin. Regardless of who they are or what their sin. That is Christian love.
April 15th, 2008 at 11:28 am
geoffrey,
sorry, i thought i did answer the question, “Are you able to believe that a cat is a horse?” … the answer is NO, because the cat has revealed itself to be not a horse but a cat! we’re not programed robots, we’re intelligent designs, given brains to understand the difference between the two.
April 15th, 2008 at 11:41 am
Jan – I agree with you on one point: We dedicate ourselves to what we see as important. If asked whom I would choose to serve, my answers would be many: my parents, my family, my friends, people doing good works, the environment, and endangered species spring to mind. The Bible’s god would not be on my list any more than the Hindu gods, the Norse gods, the tooth fairy, and countless other dieties invented by mankind.
Invariably, Christians other religionists quote from their scriptures when arguing their case. Although the Bible has some philosophical value (for example, there are times when it is advisable to “turn the other cheek”) it is hardly an unbiased source when it comes to declaring the existence of its own god. Of course there are many passages in the Bible that claim its god is the best god, and that raise on a pedestal those that follow its god, and that criticise and threaten those who believe differently. In these characteristics, it is no different from dozens of other religions. The Bible is hardly an impartial source about the Bible. Thus, Biblical quotes alone are weightless unless they can be supported by independent, impartial sources.
Jan, the logic you present is circular: “If you choose to serve Him, He will clear up the rest for you and make trusting easy.” In other words, one must first believe in him, and then he will make it easy to believe in him. How does that even make sense? It could just as easily apply to the Easter Bunny: Just believe in him, and then it will be easy to believe in him.
April 15th, 2008 at 11:47 am
Colleen – Then it seems we agree that belief is not a choice, but is dependent upon the evidence at hand. Applying this to religion, the evidence at hand that I have is that there are no gods. This is what determines my belief. I cannot “just believe” that a god exists any easier than you can believe that a cat is a horse. To use your phrasing, the universe has revealed itself to me as god-free.
April 15th, 2008 at 12:11 pm
geoffrey,
there’s still a couple of things you haven’t addressed, that i have posted. you always ask for proof, and i showed you heaps of scripture that revealed truth from what it states about the non-believer, being blind to the truth. you are proof positive of what scripture states. do you find proof in that?
i also don’t know your thoughts on the bible–be it a partly true book, a fictional book?
perhaps you see Christians as clinging to their beliefs, simply based on this silly book that carries these outrageous stories that sound good, and we therefore choose to believe in them. but geoffrey, it’s so much more… have you ever experienced a concert of pure worship, and felt the presence of the holy spirit fill the room, leaving your spirit longing in hunger to praise Him? have you ever had a song lyric or sentence in a book touch so deep into your heart, that your eyes well up with tears of love for your Creator? have you ever looked at a magnificent tree, and felt your soul sing praises to the One who created that tree, that your eyes may revel in its delight? or listened to a bird sing, or see the mountains peer over the valleys and just thank God for His glorious creation? do you ever know the longing for your Savior to come on back and take you to that place of promise, where there will be no more tears and pain? have you ever felt so loved, that you knew there was nothing you could do to ever ever separate you from that particular love?
because when your eyes and heart are opened, that is what being a Christian will do for you, that is what it is. it fills you with hope, love, goodness and light. these are the things you are missing out on by keeping God at a distance. if you would only open your eyes, if you would only open your heart, if you would only resist the lies being fed into your spirit… or as Rich Mullins once said, if only you would just look up.
April 15th, 2008 at 12:34 pm
Ron – Therefore, your belief system tells you that, just because someone has not been convinced of Christianity, it is right and just that they be tortured for all eternity. What better definition of hate? Who would I want tortured for even a minute, other than someone I hated?
In your belief system, your god desires eternal torture for these people, and so you desire it too. Listen to what you must tell yourself: “I desire torture for non-believers.” You don’t even have to add “for all eternity” to feel the hatred in that statement. Cloaking Christianity in the warm and fuzzy word “love” cannot obscure the hate-talk against non-believers.
April 15th, 2008 at 12:50 pm
Colleen – (huff, puff) I’m getting there!
April 15th, 2008 at 1:07 pm
No Geoffrey, it’s not because they believe or do not believe that they are punished, but because they have sinned. If you life a sin-free life you can get into heaven. But if you have blown it, like the rest of us, then you need God’s grace and mercy. I don’t know how to say it any clearer. Grace and mercy upon those who don’t deserve it is love.
Other points from your posts: Without absolute knowledge of every section of the universe, you can’t know for sure there is no God. You have looked at a small amount of evidence and concluded there is no God.
Re: circular reasoning. Your point would be valid, if the Bible were written by one man in one sitting. But it’s not. It’s 66 books written over hundreds of years with archaeological, prophetic and statistical evidence as external evidence to it’s authority.
Re: Christianity being like all other religions. Christianity stands alone as a religion that requires nothing to gain eternal life. All other religions I know of require you be a good person. Which brings us full circle to this original post. “Are you good enough to go to Heaven?”
April 15th, 2008 at 1:47 pm
Ron – Pardon me if I misunderstood, but I thought your religion taught that no one is without sin. If so, then only “God’s grace and mercy” will allow us to escape his chamber of eternal torture. And is there any way to obtain “God’s grace and mercy” without believing in Jesus as our Lord and savior? If not, then any non-believer is banished to eternal torture, a fate that Christians fervently desire for non-believers. Do I have it right?
“Without absolute knowledge of every section of the universe, you can’t know for sure there is no God. You have looked at a small amount of evidence and concluded there is no God.”
True. This is what I meant by “the universe has revealed itself to me as god-free.” Just as Colleen is convinced by the available evidence that the cat is not a horse, I am convinced by the available evidence that the universe is god-free.
Circular logic: What difference does it make how many people wrote the Bible? How is it NOT circular to say, “believe first, and then it will be easy to believe”???
“Christianity stands alone as a religion that requires nothing to gain eternal life.”
Doesn’t Christianity require belief in Jesus as our Lord and savior in order to gain eternal life?
“All other religions [except Christianity] I know of require you be a good person.” No doubt this will be a relief to many Christians who wish for non-believers to suffer eternally.
April 15th, 2008 at 2:41 pm
It is a true statement. No one is good. But we don’t desire that you go there. Why do you think we are taking the time to even have this discussion?
I said using the Bible to prove the Bible is not circular logic. I do agree with you that asking you to make a blind leap of faith may not be the best approach for you. It wouldn’t for me. But I think what she’s asking you to do, is open yourself to the possibility that Bible may be true. Humble yourself. Frankly, we are heading into some deep theological waters, and if I can’t get you to see even your need for a savior, then it’s not going to help to debate or discuss where faith comes from or if repentance is something you do, or a reaction because of your faith.
April 15th, 2008 at 3:02 pm
i will say geoffrey, you are a breath of fresh air to have this ‘debate’ with. it saddens me so, when others extend their hatred towards me for being a Christian, because i try to share who Jesus is to them. so thank you for your kindness, above all else.
i look forward to your addressing my other questions.
April 15th, 2008 at 3:24 pm
Geoffrey,
Ron just posted something similar to the post I am working on. I was writing the following when he made his post:
Two things you say I want to disagree with. (If I were smart enough to use tags, I would insert your quote, but since I am not, I will do it this way.)
You said, “any non-believer is banished to eternal torture, a fate that Christians fervently desire for non-believers. Do I have it right?”
No, you do not have that right. Colleen, Ron, and I just being here on this site are evidence that this is not what we want. Why else would we desire you to believe in Christ, if we did not want you to avoid eternal separation from God? Every missionary and Christian martyr who has given their life to spread the gospel has done so that others might live. Christ died on a cruel cross so that others might live. He is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. (II Peter 3:9)
Something that I would like to readdress is the “If you choose to serve Him, He will clear up the rest for you and make trusting easy.” I realize that I did not make my thoughts clear on that at all. Will you allow me to try again?
The Bible says that we can only come to Christ if the Father draws us.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Geoffrey, I believe the Father is drawing you. That is a wonderful thing. When the Father draws us, we need to be willing to take that step of faith. The first step is the hardest, but it is also the most rewarding thing you will ever do. When I was saved, I knew very little about the plan of salvation. I was reading the book of John, chapter 3. There is a lot of infomation in that chapter. Some I did understand, but then I read Jesus words, “Ye must be born again.” I did not know what that meant or how it could happen, but I knew the Lord was dealing with me and I knew that I had not been born again. I knew. This is where a choice comes in. I could have chosen to say I don’t understand that, it makes no sense, so forget it, or I could have chosen to do what I did. That day, alone, at home, no preacher or teacher, I said, “Lord, I do not understand this, but I believe You.” I trusted the Lord Jesus that day and He has never let me go since that moment. That is why I am saying to you that you will have more understanding and therefore greater faith after you have made the first step. Christ brought people into my life who taught me. Perhaps the greatest change was the opening of the scripture to me. I began to understand what I read in the Bible. Later, I did make a public profession and was ‘rebaptized’. This is also why I said to you the first time I sort of stuck my nose into the conservations you were having with Ron and Colleen that I cannot argue with you and convince you to become a Christian. I can, however, tell you that when the Father draws you and reveals Himself to you, a simple act of faith will be a first step on a lifelong journey that you will never regret.
The other thing that I disagree with you about is your remark that Christians think the God of the Bible is the best god. Christians do not think this, because there is only one God. All the others are imposters. You will either come to know the One true God or you will never know God. You will argue that every religion says the same, but that isn’t actually true. Many religions are polytheistic and none offer a personal relationship with the Father. All are manmade and are examples of man reaching and searching for a god. Christianity is the only faith whereby God reaches out to mankind. I am thankful that one day, He reached down His hand for me and I am praying that He will reach down for you as well.
April 15th, 2008 at 5:28 pm
Ron – Yes, perhaps you would like me to become a Christian. But, for all those who never convert by the time they die, most likely including me, you wish them to be tortured.
Re: “using the Bible to prove the Bible is not circular logic.” Huh? Using the Bible to prove the Bible is EXACTLY circular logic!!
Re: “open yourself to the possibility that Bible may be true.” I do believe that parts of the Bible are true. There are people, cities, and historical events that are backed by scientific evidence. But there are internal inconsistencies that prevent me from believing that the Bible is infallible. For example, in Genesis 6:19, God tells Noah, “You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you.” Yet, in Genesis 7:2 and 7:3, God tells Noah, “Take with you seven of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and two of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, and also seven of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth.” Can both versions be the true word of God? Or is it more likely that they are simply the words of fallible humans?
Another example: I cannot imagine a loving god ordering Joshua to kill the children of Jericho, and to take the possessions of the inhabitants. I find it far more plausible that Joshua, having wandered the desert, needed a place to park, so he invented his godly orders to make sure his people would follow him and commit the massacre he wanted.
There are many other examples of self-contradiction in the Bible. Without resolving these, I cannot believe it is the word of an infallible god. But I am open to resolving these. If anyone can explain them, I will certainly listen.
April 15th, 2008 at 6:19 pm
Geoffrey, That is certainly a difficult passage to understand. Here is what I have been taught and what I believe.
The people of Jericho had paganistic rituals that were brutal and licentious. This is learned from what is called Ras Shamra tablets and relics of fertility practices unearthed at Beth-sham and Megiddo. The immoral character of the Canaanite deities led their devotees into the most demoralizing rites of that time period. The practices were apparently so evil that God forbade the rebuilding of the city. For this reason, God brought judgement on the people of Jericho.
Did he do this without warning? NO! For seven days Joshua and his army marched around the city. The residents could have repented as Rahab did, however, they chose to remain within the city and defy the army of God. I understand that your problem is with the death of the children. The only way I have heard this explained and what I believe is that God knew in His infinite wisdom that the children would have grown up to corrupt themselves and the Israelites due to their early teachings. The practices were so vile that God’s judgement required extinction of that society. Sin is deadly. More would have died by allowing them to live because of the sin that would have lived with them.
If you believe and understand that God creates and sustains life and is ultimately in charge of how long any of us live, you might begin to view this as all death is viewed. We all live out our lives by the grace of God. He has the power and authority to give life and to take life. This period of history was a demonstration of God’s faithfulness to his covenant people and of a Holy God in putting away evil. The entire old testament of the Bible is God teaching mankind how he deals with his own and how he judges sin. His mercy can be seen in the period of time that was given before Joshua invaded the city and in the fact that Rahab and her family were spared. Rahab was not an exception for any reason other than she chose to repent and believe God. The Bible clearly teaches us that the wages of sin is death. God wants us to choose life. Jesus said, “I came that ye might have life…”
Hope this helps.
Jan
April 15th, 2008 at 6:42 pm
Colleen,
Thank you for your kind words. I am glad that everyone here has been able to tolerate the questioning of their beliefs, mine included, because it is really allowing for an interesting conversation.
To answer your questions:
1) “did you read the book of john yet”? Yes.
2) “did you even try asking God to reveal Himself to you, with true faith in your heart that there just might be some truth to all of this?”
How about this: I will ask him now. I have stated above that I do allow for the possibility that I am wrong and that the god of the Bible actually exists. Therefore, I think that satisfies your “true faith in your heart that there just might be some truth to all of this” prerequisite, correct? Now, you’ll have to take my word for this next part: I’m going to say out loud the words you suggest: “God, please reveal yourself to me.” It should be enough to just think these words, or just write them, but I’ll actually say them. Then I’ll let you know the results. I’ll say them now:….OK, I just said them. And truly, I would love to speak to any non-human. You’ve seen the thrill scientists get when speaking sign language with a gorilla. It’s fascinating to communicate with another species. Imagine speaking with a god! Who wouldn’t want to do that? Believe me, I am wide open to that prospect! By now you must know me well enough to believe that I have many questions I would like to ask him!!!
Alas, nothing has happened yet. How long should I wait to hear from this guy? Well, while we wait, I’ll address your other questions.
3) “do you believe the bible holds any truth at all?” Yes, as you probably know, after you posed this question I explained to Ron that I do believe those parts of the Bible that have been proven by independent studies.
4) “i showed you heaps of scripture that revealed truth from what it states about the non-believer, being blind to the truth. you are proof positive of what scripture states. do you find proof in that?” I must confess, I haven’t had time to read all the biblical references you sent, and which you accurately describe as “heaps.” But every religion claims that the non-believer is blind, so if that were a reason to believe the Bible, it iwould also be a reason to believe the others. Thus, I do not consider that statement to be proof.
5) “have you ever experienced a concert of pure worship, and felt the presence of the holy spirit fill the room, leaving your spirit longing in hunger to praise Him?” No, though I have heard religious music, even some that I liked. But that’s music. Music has effects on our emotion that we can’t control. Can you imagine “Jaws” without the scary music? The music adds so much “ummph.”
6) “have you ever had a song lyric or sentence in a book touch so deep into your heart, that your eyes well up with tears of love for your Creator?” Since I believe my creators are my parents, I must answer yes. I have shed many tears of love for them. They have struggled all their lives and have overcome immense barriers, and they have raised a loving son through it all.
7) “have you ever looked at a magnificent tree, and felt your soul sing praises to the One who created that tree, that your eyes may revel in its delight? or listened to a bird sing, or see the mountains peer over the valleys and just thank God for His glorious creation?” Since I do not believe that any gods exist, I haven’t thanked any of them. But I have marveled at the mechanisms that creatures have developed to adapt to their environments. And when I’ve studied life at the molecular level, I’ve been all the more fascinated. I agree with you – it is delightful.
8 ) “do you ever know the longing for your Savior to come on back and take you to that place of promise, where there will be no more tears and pain?” Again, no, because I do not believe that such a place, or such a Savior, exists. It would be great if it did, but I cannot find the evidence for it, so I have no choice but to believe what I “see”: we have one life, and we’d better make the most of it and enjoy its beauty, because someday we will die and cease to be. There is no shame or outrage in that fate; it is simply the price all living creatures must pay for life. (Note: I use the term “see” to cover all the senses, as well as the sense of reason.)
9) “have you ever felt so loved, that you knew there was nothing you could do to ever ever separate you from that particular love?” No. I have seen people swept away from their loved ones by events they could not control, and I see myself as subject to those same forces. Again, I feel I must make the most of my time with my loved ones, because someday I will have no more time with them.
April 15th, 2008 at 6:47 pm
PS: There’s that accursed
again! It’s supposed to be an 8 ) ( I just put a space in there).
Ron's note: I fixed it in your post by adding the space.April 15th, 2008 at 8:17 pm
hey geoffrey, will you watch that video in #96? and i’ll get my thoughts together and answer you a tad later……
April 15th, 2008 at 8:25 pm
the smiley face–i just understood what you were saying. that’s funny!
April 16th, 2008 at 5:59 am
PS- yesterday i sent that link (the video in the above post), and i sent it to the masses–everyone i know, and my dear “agnostic” friend asked me to never send her links again. honestly, it stabbed me deep, i was hurt, because i felt she was rejecting me, until i remembered Jesus said we are to count it worthy to suffer persecution for Him. it wasn’t about ME, it was about God, my friend was rejecting Him.
so geoffrey, that is why i said that about you being a breath of fresh air… i was hurt yesterday and felt discouraged–ready to throw in the towel of “witnessing” but that still small voice told me to press on. you have never extended anything but willingness to learn. this is a challenge for me, one i love and one i’m gaining my own knowledge in, just in being a part of this entire discussion.
i’m not going to give up on you or anyone who is ever willing to hear the gospel.
i agree with jan, she said alot of things so well, but i love how she recognized how God is drawing you to Him. and to let you know, you have prayer warriors praying for you. our “small group” at my church lifts you up in prayer each sunday now.
i really wanted to share all of this. today is a new day, and i am pumped to be here, available to be a witness. and i’ll roll with any punches that come my way.
blessings to you all today! ~colleen
April 16th, 2008 at 12:08 pm
i’m at it here again. i trust we’re all friends and no one will find their tail feathers being stepped upon if we answer/share input with each others posts.
from #105: there is NO way to obtain heaven w/o believing in Jesus as your personal savior, but God does and will extend his grace and mercy to unbelievers. it is in His doing so that draws folks to Him. never forget, He is a God who loves each of us and desires we ALL inherit heaven.
Christians DO NOT desire hell/torture upon anyone. that would go against their very own new nature in Christ, who has transformed their heart into magnitudes of love. you must quit stating that in here, because we all keep telling you that isn’t so. either you have been ill-informed, you’ve encountered a nasty so-called Christian who in a twisted way believed this, or you are pre-judging w/o merit based simply on your own opinion.
#111: you asked God to reveal Himself to you, so brace yourself geoffrey, because He will! and you are right… imagine speaking, not only to A god, but the one true almighty God! it’s so wonderful, you can approach Him at any time and He is faithful to you. you say you have questions for Him, but you would be surprised at how many of your questions have been addressed in the scriptures. how long should you wait to hear from Him you ask? i believe He is speaking to you each time you come in here.
thank you for all of your honest answers. i’ve got a couple of more things i’m going to come back and address.
April 16th, 2008 at 3:02 pm
Jan – Then if your god were to tell you to kill babies, you would view killing them as a good deed?
April 16th, 2008 at 3:31 pm
Colleen,
1) “there is NO way to obtain heaven w/o believing in Jesus as your personal savior”
Then I am confused. Ron said, “Christianity stands alone as a religion that requires nothing to gain eternal life.”
2) “Christians DO NOT desire hell/torture upon anyone.”
But if your god wishes to punish non-believers by sending them to hell, is it not your wish that his will be done?
3) “how long should you wait to hear from Him you ask? i believe He is speaking to you each time you come in here.”
No, I haven’t heard from him yet.
4) Re: the video link you sent: It’s well-done, and even has meaning to me. In my eyes, the god-figure is actually my parents. Fortunately I never abandoned them for the drugs and materialism portrayed in the video.
April 16th, 2008 at 3:43 pm
Geoffrey,
I guess you set me up for that, but I did see it coming. However, you asked for an explanation and I gave it to you.
The Israelites were living under a different covenant. God was dealing with His people in a different way for His own purposes, but always for His glory and our good. We may not understand fully. The Bible says that now we see as through a glass darkly, but someday we will see face to face.
I am not a leader of a nation or an army. Even if I were, God will not tell me to kill children (not even unborn ones). Jesus came with a new message and a new covenant. As Ron said, we are in deep theological waters and I do not expect to be able to explain everything to your satisfaction. You did say that if someone could give an explanation, you would listen.
Jan
April 16th, 2008 at 4:49 pm
Jan – You can call it a “set-up” if you want, but I am simply following the logical thread, and it’s no secret that I find Joshua’s baby-killing disgusting. You explained everything in the third person, and in fact I did listen. And I couldn’t help but wonder what your thoughts would be if it were you who was ordered to do the killing. I do appreciate your attempt to explain the massacre at Jericho. You’ve probably done it as well as it could be done. But it’s not an easy thing to do, because it requires the justification of baby-killing. “Old covenant” or “new covenant,” it’s the same god, and Christians and Jews don’t seem able to criticise him, no matter how badly he behaves. But he can’t whistle past the graveyard, call himself “pure good,” and pretend he never ordered those babies killed. This is only one of the Bible’s self-contradictions that have prevented me from believing it.
By the way, there were other cases of baby-killing committed before Jericho, under Moses. In Heshbon, the king refused to let Moses and his people pass, so he, his army, and his people (“men, women, and children”) were destroyed. Had those babies too absorbed terrible sins that justified their killing?
In my humble opinion, your god should have done his own killing instead of telling the humans to do it. Why not? That way he would not have set a precedent for people killing in his name. But now, with that precedent set, any whacko can kill and claim that God told him to, and nobody can really prove him wrong. Had your god made it clear that NOBODY should kill in his name, then it could be argued that said whacko is not following the Bible.
The other thing that I find troubling here is that many people ignore the unpleasantries in the Bible. Many Christians want the so-called “Ten Commandments” posted everywhere. Well, that was the “old covenant,” too. So does any part of the “old covenant” apply today? If so, then how can it be claimed that the baby-killing parts no longer apply?
“God will not tell me to kill children” – How do you know? He is said to work in strange ways. Do you know completely his thinking on this issue? It seems to me that you could not, and that you must allow for the possibility that he could ask you to do this.
April 16th, 2008 at 7:15 pm
if joshua killed babies in accordance to God’s instruction, then doesn’t that help shed light on the point that God is good… since their deaths came before they reached the age of accountability, their souls would go to heaven, rather than letting them grow up big and bad, where they would have spent eternity in hell? is that a possibility here? and if so, then which is the worse of the two?
April 16th, 2008 at 7:18 pm
Commandments and covenants are different. The commandments are a part of the law and Jesus said, Matthew 5:17 ” Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. ” I am commanded not to kill, so I know that I will not be commanded to kill by God.
My thinking on this is that war is something God has allowed and due to the sin nature of man it is many times necessary. Innocent people always die in war and when nations go against nation, there will be private citizens and children who die. Please do not think that I am trying to change your mind and convince you. I really do not think that I can do that. We could argue forever on points of the Bible and just become more and more determined to prove the other wrong. I am not interested in doing this.
Perhaps the Lord will help you to reconcile the difficult passages that seem to offend you.
This might help. God could just as easily have left out every passage that would offend a person, but He chose not to do this. Matthew 11:6 reads, “And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.
April 16th, 2008 at 7:50 pm
geoffrey, you are very misunderstood on who God is, because for now, you do not know Him on a personal level. see the above (heaps of) verses stating what and how the unbeliever thinks/believes/understands or doesn’t understand, and you may realize the scriptures are on to something. you want proof-positive, but won’t proof-negative work just the same?
God would not ask anyone to murder children. i don’t believe He would today. remember in itunes where those sermons were? (search under tommy nelson, then go to denton bible church…) well he does a sermon called “Dispensationalism” which explains a lot of good points as to what you are getting at, but you will have to listen for yourself if you want more clarity.
seriously, if you are really bothered by the baby killing thing, i encourage you to read more into the bible. it has to be taken as a whole, then it all makes perfect sense! it’s a glorious plan. you just need to get to know it and come to understand it. (easier said than done, eh?) make sure you aren’t just choosing a story w/o full understanding of the larger realm. and it truly sounds to me like something inside of you DOES believe in God, but you seem to have problems with some things you’ve learned/experienced in coming to know Him, so you say you don’ t believe at all, like to spite Him or something. cos if you didn’t believe at all, you wouldn’t be bothered by the story of joshua.
here is what is written in the book, “Answers to tough questions skeptics ask about the Christian faith.” by Josh McDowell and Don Stewart
“… Jesus himself declared that the Old Testament may be summed up by the commandments to love God and love your neighbor. (Matthew 22:37). He also observed that God in the O.T. had continually desired love and mercy rather than sacrifice. (Matthew 9:13; 12:7). This attitude can be seen with statements such as, “Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked…and not rather that he should turn from his way and live? (Ezekiel 18:23). God would not have destroyed certain nations except that He is a God of justice and their evil could not go unchecked and condoned.”
unfortunately, babies are part of those nations, but again, see my above post (#120).
it also says in that book, “We find judgement as well as love scattered very pervasively throughout the N.T., and love and mercy as well as judgement throughout the O.T. God is consistent and unchanging, but different situations call for different emphases. Therefore, when the two Testaments are read the way they were intended, they reveal the same holy God who is rich in mercy, but who will not let sin go unpunished.”
(again, reference the sermon “Dispensationalism” if you need more clarity–Tommy explains it wonderfully.)
oh but wait–i can’t quote the bible to prove a point, can i? or maybe i can… back in a sec with another one for you…
April 16th, 2008 at 7:52 pm
RE: Circular Logic
more from “Answers to tough questions skeptics ask about the Christian faith.” by Josh McDowell and Don Stewart
“Are Christians guilty of circular reasoning?
A charge that is frequently leveled against the Bible is that Christians argue in circles. The charge goes that Christians claim the Bible is the inspired Word of God and, as a proof of this contention, they quote a passage from the Bible that says so. This type of argumentation is known as begging the question, or circular reasoning. Nothing is proved in this type of argumentation. It is based on assuming something to be true, using that assumption as fact to prove another assumption and using the “proved” assumption to prove your original assumption! Some Christians (and many non-Christians) do argue in circles, but about the Bible they certainly don’t need to. Instead of assuming the Bible is the Word of God, we can begin by demonstrating that the Scriptures are basically reliable and trustworthy historical documents. This is confirmed by applying the ordinary test of historical criticism to the Scriptures. Once it is established that the Bible is a valid historical record, the next point is realizing that Jesus Christ claims to be the unique Son of God and that He bases this claim on His forthcoming resurrection from the dead. Next, we examine the evidence for the resurrection contained in this historic document and find that arguments overwhelmingly support the contention that Christ has risen from the dead. If this is true, then He is the unique Son of God as He claimed to be. If He is indeed God, then He speaks with authority on all matters. Since Jesus considered the Old Testament to be the Word of God (Matthew 15:1-4; 5:17, 18) and promised His disciples, who either wrote or had control over the writing of the New Testament books, that the Holy Spirit would bring all things back to their remembrance (John 14:26), we can insist, with sound and accurate logic, that the Bible is God’s Word. This is not circular reasoning. It is establishing certain facts and basing conclusions on the sound logical outcome of these facts. The case for Christianity can be established by ordinary means of historical investigation.”
April 17th, 2008 at 6:49 am
Speaking of circles, Geoffrey, we’re back to having this sense of right and wrong. Your conscience tells you it’s wrong to kill children. Just as your conscience confirms you have sinned or broken God’s laws. You get around this by “carving” your own false God (if only in your mind). One who should do this or that according to your mind. It’s called idolatry. You continue to say “your God’, but the god you refer to is nowhere near the God we serve.
If we could yank you into the kingdom and show you the truth, Geoffrey, we sure would. But we can not. Nothing is required. Repentance and faith will be evidence of your conversion. But God does give you the free will to reject him. We could run down rabbit trails for years but again, it will always come back to this very point. You have sinned against God. According to His word, and according to your conscience. If you don’t see that, then the rest is really going to be foolishness to you, no matter what we say.
We will continue to pray for you.
April 17th, 2008 at 6:53 am
After posting, i see this looks as though I am angry or upset, I am not. If anything it’s just sad to me. But I do trust that God will open your eyes in due time. I pray something we said here has been helpful to you and that our words and actions have brought Glory to God.
April 17th, 2008 at 2:49 pm
Jan: (re: post #122) I did not mean to say that the “Ten Commandments” WERE the old covenant; I meant to say that they were given under the old covenant. Sorry for my error.
“I am commanded not to kill, so I know that I will not be commanded to kill by God.” Prior to his killing spree, Moses too had been commanded not to kill, having personally received the so-called “Ten Commandments” (which are not really the Ten Commandments; see post #1). He’s done it before. How can you know what your god may have in store for you? Do you completely know his mind on this issue, or any other? Does he not “work in mysterious ways” that we can’t predict?
Don’t worry about me thinking that you are trying to change my mind. I am not afraid of anyone trying to change my mind. My mind will follow the evidence. The strongest evidence wins. And the strongest evidence is that which survives rigorously questioning.
“God could just as easily have left out every passage that would offend a person, but He chose not to do this.” Since I do not believe in gods, I see nothing divine about the Bible. I believe that the offensive parts were left in because they were more acceptable at the time they were written. The god of the Old Testament is described as more of a typical king of that era: jealous, strict, demanding, wrathful, sometimes caring, etc. This is how people viewed a good leader back then. As man’s sensibilities evolved, so to did his image of what constitutes a good leader. By the time of the New Testament, the god seems to have been through a 12-step program. To me it indicates the mind of man at work, not divine inspiration, and certainly not an ever-constant god.
April 17th, 2008 at 2:51 pm
Colleen: (re: post #121) “if joshua killed babies in accordance to God’s instruction, then doesn’t that help shed light on the point that God is good….” You assume that the babies would be hopelessly ruined when they grew up, but babies can readily adapt to a new family environment. And besides, couldn’t your god simply fix any defects, instead of subjecting the babies to painful deaths? Furthermore, the Bible never claims that killing them was an act of mercy. The killings are simply described as necessary in order for Joshua to take over.
(re: post #123) “you want proof-positive, but won’t proof-negative work just the same?” I’m not sure what you mean by this. Can you summarize for me?
“God would not ask anyone to murder children.” As I asked Jan above, how do you know? He’s done it before. Do you completely know his mind on this issue, or any other? Does he not “work in mysterious ways” that we can’t predict?
“if you didn’t believe at all, you wouldn’t be bothered by the story of joshua.” No, truly, I have no evidence for the existence of any gods, and my belief is proportional to the evidence. I honestly do not believe in your god any more than you believe in other gods. What bothers me about the story of Joshua is that he is portrayed as a good person. He commits attrocities, but because his god put him up to it, it’s supposed to be OK. Unfortunately, this is the same lack of reasoning used by Muslim extremists when they kill.
“(quoting Josh McDowell) Jesus himself declared that the Old Testament may be summed up by the commandments to love God and love your neighbor.” I didn’t find the O.T. god to be so great, as I’ve indicated in my comments above to Jan and in my statements about his encouragement of baby-killing. To the contrary, he ordered Joshua not to love his neighbor, but to kill his neighbor and all the neighbor’s children.
(re: post 124, circular reasoning) “(quoting Josh McDowell) we can begin by demonstrating that the Scriptures are basically reliable and trustworthy historical documents. This is confirmed by applying the ordinary test of historical criticism to the Scriptures. Once it is established that the Bible is a valid historical record,….” Josh McDowell is incorrect. There are many parts of the Bible that are inconsistent with each other, thereby demonstrating a reliability of less than 100%. But even if you ignore those, there are many parts of the Bible that have not been proven, and just because part of a document is “basically true,” that certainly does not mean that the entire document is 100% true. One could take a history book and rewrite it such that the Nazis won World War II. By Josh’s logic, this would be truthful, just because the rest of the book is true.
April 17th, 2008 at 2:52 pm
Ron: “Nothing is required.” The guidelines on this that I’m getting from you and Colleen seem inconsistent with each other. She says “there is NO way to obtain heaven w/o believing in Jesus as your personal savior.” Is this not a requirement?
“God does give you the free will to reject him.” As Colleen and I demonstrated above (#72 and 98), belief is not a matter of free will. Neither of us can force ourselves to believe what the evidence at hand disputes. And unless you can choose to believe that a cat is a horse, then you are in the same camp.
“Your conscience tells you it’s wrong to kill children. Just as your conscience confirms you have sinned or broken God’s laws.” I assume you are using the word “sin” in its religious sense, which to me is meaningless. Therefore my conscience does not confirm that I have sinned or broken your god’s laws, any more than your conscience tells you that you have broken Thor’s laws. But have I ever done wrong? Yes.
“You get around this by “carving” your own false God (if only in your mind).” You’re reaching a long way around to try to bring idolatry into it. What I have tried to do is describe the inconsistencies I see in the Bible that prevent me from believing that it is the infallable word of your god. Somehow you see my questioning as sinful. Call it whatever unsavory name you like, but name-calling does not constitute a rational reply.
“If you don’t see that, then the rest is really going to be foolishness to you, no matter what we say.” I do not view rationality as foolishness. I respect anyone who offers their honest opinion and is open to discussion. Even many of the opinions given above, with which I have disagreed, I have not mocked as foolish. I have great admiration for those who are participating. An open and honest discussion is NEVER foolish!
“But I do trust that God will open your eyes in due time.” He knows where to find me.
“I pray … that our words and actions have brought Glory to God.” I can’t imagine why an all-powerful being would so desperately need to be glorified. He seems insecure. Isn’t he happy just being perfect?
April 17th, 2008 at 2:52 pm
To all: Would anyone like to address the “Noah’s ark” discrepancy I mentioned above (#109)?
April 17th, 2008 at 5:11 pm
dear geoffrey,
you’re wrong and we’re all right.
thank you and have a good night!
April 17th, 2008 at 5:11 pm
i’m JUSSST kidding.
but i’d like to come back in a bit and address a few more points.
April 17th, 2008 at 5:22 pm
Whew! I thought you had me there, with your meticulous reasoning!
April 17th, 2008 at 6:21 pm
no, you just stumped me for but a fleeting nano-second, and that’s all i could think of to write! hee hee…
back later on!
April 17th, 2008 at 9:07 pm
okay, how ’bout this…
darn it geoffrey, i have no patience for this, for i stumble in all virtues.
look, you can find whatever faults you may, in scriptures or your feeble opinion of god–lower-case “G”!
but what you are failing to recognize, is the testimony of three humble hearts revealing themselves to you–in proof POSITIVE of the gain in their lives from being a Christian! (darn it!)
mumbo-jumbo to all the side-tracks… we’re not killing for our beliefs, we’re not hating anyone for our beliefs, but we are being witnesses to the ways Jesus has transformed our lives. and you can’t see it–because satan is shrouding your eyes.
we are here because we care about your soul – we three strangers hold to the same sentiment that we care about you.
you are failing to see the light and the love, because you are blinded and held captive from seeing the truth.
my prayer is that God truly rips the scales from your eyes!
i’ll be kinder and more in depth later, but for now, this is what i wish to express.
(more to come, and i feel better.)
April 17th, 2008 at 9:36 pm
one more… please trust me, the above was expressed in all light-heartedness, (yet serious-ness). there was a glimmer of a smile on my face all the while i wrote/posted that note…. like so:
April 18th, 2008 at 7:21 am
all right geoffrey, in all seriousness, here goes. and this is address your noah and the ark bit…
again, from “Answers to tough questions skeptics ask about the Christian faith.” by Josh McDowell and Don Stewart:
“How many of each animal entered the ark?”
“And of every living thing of all flesh, you shall bring two of every kind into the ark, to keep them alive with you; that they shall be male and female” (Genesis 6:19,20, NASB).
“You shall take with you of every clean animal by sevens, a male and his female; and of the animals that are not clean two, a male and his female; also of the birds of the sky, by sevens, male and female, to keep the offspring alive on the face of all the earth” (Genesis 7:2, 3, NASB).
At first reading the statements appear to be contradictory. First (Genesis 6:19, 20) Noah is commanded to bring two of every kind into the ark, then in Genesis 7:2, 3, seven of some animals and birds, and then later in 7:8, 9, the Scriptures speak of animals going in by twos.
However, Genesis 7:8, 9 does not speak of the ‘numbers’ of animals going in, but the ‘manner.’ Seven of each clean animal (three pairs, with another animal to be used for sacrifice) marched into the ark by twos, and the other animals also went in by pairs.
The remaining question of the possible contradiction between Genesis 6:19, 20 and Genesis 7:2, 3 is easily resolved when they are understood in the light of the literary practices of the ancients. A general statement would be made first, and then followed with another statement providing specifics.
This is the case here, with Genesis 6:19, 20 being the general statement and Genesis 7:2, 3 providing the additional detail that clean animals were to be taken by sevens, instead of just by twos as were the other animals. A male and a female, two of each kind, entered with an additional five of each clean animal.
so there ya have it! next?
April 20th, 2008 at 8:04 am
Nope. It’s not inconsistent. But I understand your confusion.
While it may be true, you do not see any evidence of God. I have met many who say they believe and yet do not want to repent of their sins. They prefer their sin to what they think the Christian life holds for them. Once saved we all also choose to sin. And in fact, if it were not for the restraint of the Holy Spirit I’d run head first into it daily.
Put simply, sin is the breaking of laws. And God has given you his law in word form and as a conscience. Regardless of how you feel about them, they are there.
I did not mean to offend. I’m not name calling. I’m explaining the sin you are involved in. Your questioning is not sinful. Your disobedience is.
Glad to hear it. I don’t know that I agree with your assessment, but perhaps we put different weight on the word “foolish”. The goal of my discussion with you is to point you to the truth, which I believe I’ve done many times. At some point, it becomes foolishness for me to continue having the same discussion.
God alone is worthy of being glorified. Your praise adds nothing or takes nothing away from His perfection and again He gives us the free will to not praise Him if that be our desire.
April 25th, 2008 at 9:31 am
hi all. geoffrey, you still around? i’m reading this book and came across a wonder paragraph. by Nancy Lee DeMoss:
“There is a wonderful verse in 1 Peter that shows us how Jesus’ sense of worth was determined, not by what others thought of Him – good or bad – but by the Truth as expressed by His Heavenly Father: He was “rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to Him” (2:4). Jesus was rejected by men – those He had created for Himself, those He loved and for whom He laid down His life. But that is not what determined His value. He was chosen by God; that this is what made Him precious; that is what determined His worth.
It is conceivable that someone who did not recognize or appreciate fine art would toss a masterpiece into the trash. Would that make the painting any less valuable? Not at all. The true worth of the art would be seen when an art collector spotted the painting and said, “That is a priceless piece, and I am willing to pay any amount to acquire it.”
When God sent His only Son, Jesus, to this earth to bear your sin and mine on the cross, He put a price tag on us – He declared the value of our soul to be greater than the value of the whole world. Whose opinion are you going to accept? Believing the lie will put you in bondage. Believing the Truth will set you free.”
***
i hope this sheds light on how much you are loved geoffrey, by your Creator who calls you to Him.
blessings to you all,
~colleen
May 1st, 2008 at 11:29 am
Geoffrey, If you are still out there, I thought of something you might not have considered. Please drop a line here if you are still checking in and let me know if you are interested. It has to do with a question you ask me.
Jan
May 1st, 2008 at 3:28 pm
Hi all. I’m emerging from another deluge. I’ll reply soon. Meanwhile feel free to post any other additional points.
May 1st, 2008 at 9:47 pm
Hi Geoffrey, I am glad to see you stopped back by. A couple of things that I did not address that you mentioned were:
One, you said that you see the differences in the Old Testament and the New Testament as a difference in society at the time and it appeared to you that God had been through a 12 step program. I can actually see how a person who is looking at the Bible strictly from a secular or literary perspective might come to such a conclusion.
An indepth study of the old testament, however, will reveal something entirely different. The law, the prophets, the judges, the psalms, and each book in the old testament prepares the people for the coming of a major world event: the coming of Christ. There is a depiction of Christ in some form in every book of the Bible and there is a purpose not only for the events that occurred, but for the record to be retained. That is a study that takes quite some time, but there are some very good books on this if you get interested. The Bible does state, however that “Christ is the same yesterday, and today, and for ever.” Hebrews: 13:8.
For now, I would like for you to consider, did this world event occur? During the first century AD, long before radio, TV, internet and mass media, in Thessalonica, the Jews referred to those who preached Christ as “These that have turned the world upside down…” Acts 17:6. This major world event has not diminished in importance, but has rather continued to grow and change lives. Geoffrey, will you read Acts 5:33-39. Notice those words written 2000 years ago. “If it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it…” No one has been able to stop the spread of the Gospel of Jesus Christ because it is from God.
There is another issue I would like to address, but will save it for later.
Thank you for taking the time to read this and read the Bible passage. May God bless you as you read.
May 17th, 2008 at 11:53 am
i guys, i hope you all are well! geoffrey, how’s it going?
this is a great clip by tommy nelson (the pastor i referenced many posts above) that gives an answer here that is insightful and can be very useful. it’s maybe 4 minutes long and absolutely worth listening to:
http://www.metrobible.org/mp3/21ChosenWillBelieve.mp3
for more q & a’s the rest can be found here:
http://www.metrobible.org/questions-tommy.html
May 19th, 2008 at 1:22 pm
I should be able to reply today. Sorry for the delay – I got hit with another wave.
May 19th, 2008 at 6:03 pm
I’ll start with the earliest comments and work my way forward.
Colleen: Post #63:
Re: “and i personally won’t get into the ridiculous Al Gore/global warming thing.”
I meant to reply back then, but never got around to it. Do you really not believe what the entire worldwide weather-science community has reached a solid consensus on?? What evidence do you have that they are wrong?
Post #135:
Re: “look, you can find whatever faults you may, in scriptures or your feeble opinion of god–lower-case “G”! but what you are failing to recognize, is the testimony of three humble hearts revealing themselves to you–in proof POSITIVE of the gain in their lives from being a Christian!”
You can’t say on the one hand that your beliefs are based on the Bible, and that the Bible is 100% true and 100% perfect, and then say on the other hand that faults in the Bible don’t matter. In science, and in real life, all that is required to disprove an idea is to show a single flaw. The idea then must change or be discarded. This is basic, simple logic.
Thus, if the Bible is the word of your god, and the Bible is flawed, then any logical person must conclude either: 1) your god goofed, or 2) the Bible is not his word, but the words of flawed humans. Either of these conclusions preclude 100% belief in the Bible. So do not brush aside faults that are found in the Bible.
Re: “what you are failing to recognize, is the testimony of three humble hearts revealing themselves to you–in proof POSITIVE of the gain in their lives from being a Christian!”
Mere words from humans hardly constitute “proof positive”! “Proof positive” comes after an idea survives rigorous questioning and testing. The Bible has failed. For example, you can’t claim that your god is all good and all powerful, while also admitting that he has ordered the murder of children. You may not think that killing children matters much. But to most people, it matters.
Yes, you have testified to the gain that you perceive to have gained from your Christian beliefs. But why stop there? What about the gain that you would get by studying nature? I have studied your Bible, but you have not studied the source of my beliefs. I have studied both, you have studied only one, and yet you tell me that my beliefs are wrong. How do you know, if you haven’t studied them? Answer: You can’t possibly know.
The information in the Bible is finite. The information beyond the Bible is vast and growing every minute. You have nothing to lose and much to gain by broadening your knowledge base. Will you not at least try? The UC Berkeley web site is an excellent place to start: http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/search/topicbrowse2.php?topic_id=41
Re: “Satan is shrouding your eyes.”
Thanks for your concern, but do you have any proof whatsoever of this statement? You are the one who refuses to study science. Your comments indicate that you are afraid to visit the UC Berkeley web site, as if it is somehow evil to learn about nature: “Satan would love for me to venture in there. He wants to rattle and stir up the believers into chaos and confusion.” On the other hand, I do not fear reading the Bible. Therefore, the only one shrouding their eyes is you.
Post #137:
Re: Noah’s ark contradiction, Colleen says (via Josh McDowell): “This is the case here, with Genesis 6:19, 20 being the general statement and Genesis 7:2, 3 providing the additional detail that clean animals were to be taken by sevens, instead of just by twos as were the other animals. A male and a female, two of each kind, entered with an additional five of each clean animal.”
There is a difference between “providing additional detail” and contradicting. Genesis 7:2, 3 is not simply providing additional detail. The first order “you shall bring two of every kind” is clearly at odds with the second order “You shall take with you of every clean animal by sevens.” It should be obvious to an all-knowing being that many people would be confused by these two statements. If this is your idea of perfection, then please consider raising your standards. A sixth-grader could have written better instructions. If your god truly wanted to be clear about it, why not just skip the first statement? The second one could stand perfectly well on its own. Such muddled instructions cannot be the work of a perfect being.
And by the way, I haven’t seen any mention in the Bible of the seventh animal being used for sacrifice, as Josh conveniently pulls from thin air. Honestly, you don’t wish for a more solid foundation than this?
Post #139:
Re: “Jesus’ sense of worth was determined, not by what others thought of Him – good or bad – but by the Truth as expressed by His Heavenly Father.”
So if I understand correctly, he didn’t care what others thought of him, only what his god thought of him. Of course, I believe his god sprang from his own imagination, so his opinion of himself ultimately came from himself. Thus, he convinced himself that he was the son of his god.
Re: “[Jesus] was chosen by God; that this is what made Him precious; that is what determined His worth.”
This sounds like Saddam’s Iraq, in which someone’s value is determined not by how good or capable they were, but by whether or not Saddam favored them. I do not believe we should value someone because a third party says they are important.
Returning to your painting analogy (“The true worth of the art would be seen when an art collector spotted the painting and said, “That is a priceless piece, and I am willing to pay any amount to acquire it”), did you see the painting that sold last week for the highest price ever paid for a work by a living artist? It’s horrible, in my humble opinion. See it here: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601102&sid=axZlK9cPdTeo&refer=uk . Thus, I don’t care how much the buyer values it, to me it’s ugly.
Re: “When God sent His only Son, Jesus, to this earth to bear your sin and mine on the cross….”
By what mechanism is Jesus supposed to have born our sin? Can you please clarify exactly how this worked? Can sin be transferred? If so, why not transfer it to a tree and just kill the tree?
Re: “…He put a price tag on us – He declared the value of our soul to be greater than the value of the whole world.”
Where does this come from? Where does the Bible mention the value of our souls compared to the value of the whole world?
Re: “Whose opinion are you going to accept? Believing the lie will put you in bondage. Believing the Truth will set you free.”
As I have said above, I define the truth as the body of knowledge established by the scientific method. It’s been tested in the crucible of rigorous questioning, it’s solid, and it works, whether you believe in it or not. And I agree, the truth will set you free! Try it! Take a close-up look at how nature works. How does the sun emit photons? How does chlorophyll capture them? Where does the energy go? Where the heck did the platypus come from? How do dolphins sleep without drowning? What was it about the Galapagos Island finches that was such a revelation to Darwin? Look at the natural world around you! Ask questions! Every three-year-old has that capacity (my nephew: “How can a tree stand on just one stick?”), but so many people lose their sense of curiosity as they grow older. Why is that? Are you not interested in the natural world?
May 19th, 2008 at 6:04 pm
Just posted a reply to Colleen, now awaiting moderation.
May 19th, 2008 at 6:08 pm
To Ron:
Post #138:
Re: The following conversation:
—-
Ron: “Nothing is required” (to “gain eternal life”).
Me: “The guidelines on this that I’m getting from you and Colleen seem inconsistent with each other. She says “there is NO way to obtain heaven w/o believing in Jesus as your personal savior.” Is this not a requirement?”
Ron: “Nope. It’s not inconsistent. But I understand your confusion.
—-
Ron, I don’t blame you for giving such a short, no-explanation answer. I wouldn’t be able to explain away the contradiction either. Clearly Colleen says there is a requirement, and equally clearly, you say there’s not. Yet you both claim to be following the Bible. I’ll leave it to you two to clear up your differences. Once again, I sorely wish that your god were a better writer.
Re: “While it may be true, you do not see any evidence of God. I have met many who say they believe and yet do not want to repent of their sins….”
This is irrelevant to the statement I made, to which you were supposedly responding, which was: “As Colleen and I demonstrated above (#72 and 98), belief is not a matter of free will. Neither of us can force ourselves to believe what the evidence at hand disputes. And unless you can choose to believe that a cat is a horse, then you are in the same camp.” Please try again.
Re: “Put simply, sin is the breaking of laws. And God has given you his law in word form and as a conscience. Regardless of how you feel about them, they are there.”
Says who? Again, do you have any proof of this statement whatsoever? Absolutely zero. And yet this is what you base your life on, instead of the huge body of evidence that HAS been proven.
Re: “Your questioning is not sinful. Your disobedience is.”
Again, you are using the word “sinful” to refer to the breaking of your god’s laws. But since I don’t believe in your god, then I cannot believe that I’m being sinful. Your word “sin” has no meaning to me.
Re: “God alone is worthy of being glorified.”
Once again: Says who? Did your god tell you this? If not, how does anyone know this? And if your god HAS told you this, that just proves my point about how insecure he is that he so desperately needs to be glorified.
May 19th, 2008 at 6:08 pm
To Jan:
Post #142: (In response to my statement that the God in the Bible appears to have gone through a 12-step program between the Old and the New Testament.)
Re: “There is a depiction of Christ in some form in every book of the Bible and there is a purpose not only for the events that occurred, but for the record to be retained.”
I do not see how this relates to the 12-step program comment that you are responding to. Can you clarify?
Re: “The Bible does state, however that ‘Christ is the same yesterday, and today, and for ever.’”
This too seems irrelevant, as my “12-step program” remark was directed not at the Christ character in the Bible, but at the God character. Christ is not the one who ordered the babies of Jericho slaughtered. That was God. And yet Jesus paints God as some kind of peace-loving hippie. Answer this please: Would Jesus have ordered those babies killed?
Re: “For now, I would like for you to consider, did this world event occur?” [meaning the coming of Christ, I think]
I believe that Jesus was probably a real person and a great philosopher. And I believe that after he died, various stories about him circulated and his accomplishments grew with each telling, until they defied natural laws and became miracles. Long after he died, some of the stories were selected (by humans) for inclusion in what became the New Testament. I do not believe that Jesus was the son of his god.
Re: “No one has been able to stop the spread of the Gospel of Jesus Christ because it is from God.”
You could say the same about Islam. It is spreading at a respectable rate. Is that because it is from God? And if so, shouldn’t all Christians diligently study the Koran?
The spread of Christianity got a considerable boost from the Spanish Inquisition, when differing views were murderously expunged from Spain.
May 19th, 2008 at 8:18 pm
Hi Geoffrey,
I have been missing you and I’m glad you are back.
What I was trying to say in a previous post is that there was no 12 step program, even if there appears to be because the Bible does state that ‘Christ is the same yesterday, and today, and for ever.’ Therefore, there would be no transformation, or step program as you see it. In other words, He did not change.
You also asked me if Christ would have ordered babies killed at Jericho. Jesus stated, “I and my father are One.” – John 10:30. And in John 5:30 we read, “I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.”
Jesus came to do the will of the Father. Therefore, I have to conclude that “yes”, he would have and did agree with all that the Father did including what happened at Jericho.
Now, Geoffrey, I want to ask you a question before I go on, if I may. Would you, if you could get past or understand what happened at Jericho, change your mind about God?
How do others who are Christian accept difficult passages like this?
I can only speak for myself, but for me it is a matter of accepting the omnipotence of God who spoke our world into existence and loved me enough to die for me and to reveal Himself to me.
He created life and watched as man chose death over obedience to Him. At that point, death came into the world.
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die.
When God chooses to take someone into eternity, He does so. I do not know why people die when they die and His purposes are not always made known to me. This I do know:
I Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
This is the hope that Christ gives.
Jesus came into a world where death existed because of sin and paid the ultimate price to redeem me. His eleven disciples, who fled when He was crucified and hid while He was buried, were willing to tell the story and eventually to die a martyrs death after they witnessed the risen Lord. For 2,000 years now, there are those who are willing to be ridiculed, tortured, and killed rather than denounce the Lord. The Bible calls Christ the living Word. He reveals the nature of God to us in a way that we cannot know it otherwise. When you receive this living Word, the written word will be easier for you.
While you are correct that other religions have spread, other religions seldom bring persecution. Because Christ tells us that there is no other way for a man to be reconciled to God, other than through Him and His finished work at Calvary, Christians are always in jeopardy in many countries. And yet, people are converted to Christ every day.
Satan is at enmity with God. He constantly attempts to stop the spread of Christianity. There is spiritual warfare that goes on all around us. If you allow yourself to admit it, I believe that you will sense the battle that is being waged now for your own soul.
The reason Christians say that nothing is required in order for you to be saved is because Jesus paid it all. Think of this. If I buy my son a car and I offer to give it to him, he would have to accept it and sign the title. I can say, “The car is yours.” If I paid for it, he has no price to pay for it to be his. If, however,he refuses the title, and I should die, legally he would not own the car. In that sense, something is required. He would have to receive the gift that I gave to him. This is all that is required of me to receive eternal life with Christ. I must receive what He has given me.
Romans 10:9 puts it this way, “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”
There were many eye witnesses who testify that He was raised from the dead. There are millions who have the witness in their hearts and lives.
Geoffrey, I believe that at some point, you will know.
Luke 24:31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him;…
Also, in Romans 1:21 we learn that no one is condemned who does not know:
“Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.”
Someone prayed for me Geoffrey. I know that they did. I and others pray for you that your eyes will be opened and you will know Him. We are all sinners. We are either sinners saved by grace or sinners who die in our sins.
May 19th, 2008 at 10:39 pm
Geoffrey, I hear a lot about the discrepancies that God must overcome to prove himself to you. Yet there is incredible evidence for a designer in any place within creation you care to look. I’ve asked you to explore the manuscript, archaeological and prophetic evidence as proof, but instead you want to argue about how many animals were on the ark (both statements can be true, btw).
I wish you well, Geoffrey, but I don’t think your questions are anything you’ll ever accept answers to (aside from a radical change of heart). I hope I am wrong, but the previous month’s haven’t indicated that you are. I do believe I (and others) have clearly explained God’s standard, your guilt, the punishment you can expect, your need for a savior, and the grace available to you. Should I stand next to you on the day of Judgment, you won’t be able to look at me and say I didn’t try my best. I’ll keep praying for you. Keep in touch. I pray you find the truth.
May 20th, 2008 at 4:53 pm
Ron –
Re: “I hear a lot about the discrepancies that God must overcome to prove himself to you.”
Yes, and not only him, but anyone who makes any claim about anything should be prepared to prove it if they want to be believed. If they can’t prove what they claim, they do not deserve to be believed.
Re: “there is incredible evidence for a designer in any place within creation you care to look.”
Incredible is the right word for it – it is difficult to believe. Semantics aside, name one piece of such evidence. Give me one example of a phenomenon, event, artifact, etc., whose existence has been proven, and for which a natural explanation has been conclusively ruled out.
Re: “I’ve asked you to explore the manuscript, archaeological and prophetic evidence as proof”
I will explore whatever you want. You should know by now that I have explored the manuscript. You brush off the contradictions I raised, such as the ark issue: “you want to argue about how many animals were on the ark.” That doesn’t count as discussion of the issue.
I don’t recall your mentioning any specific archeological or prophetic evidence. If I’ve forgotten, please remind me and I’ll look at it. In posting #5, I specifically asked you for an example of prophetic evidence, and you never gave me one.
Re: “I do believe I (and others) have clearly explained God’s standard, your guilt, the punishment you can expect, your need for a savior, and the grace available to you.”
You have offered nothing more than opinion, for you have provided no proof. And if opinion counts as fact, then we must both be right.
Re: : I’ll keep praying for you.”
I appreciate the thought, but don’t bother. If prayers worked, we’d all be believers by now. If you really think praying does any good, then please spend your prayer time on those suffering in Burma, China, Africa, and a hundred other places. Pray that their problems will be solved immediately. I will look forward to seeing the results.
May 21st, 2008 at 5:52 pm
geoffrey, glad to see you back here.
i’m going to reply in pieces, cos there is a lot to go thru. for starters, here is one link describing why i don’t buy into al gore’s global warming:
http://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2007/10/09/court-identifies-eleven-inaccuracies-al-gore-s-inconvenient-truth
and besides, i don’t recall seeing anywhere in revelation (or anywhere in the bible for that matter), where man destroy’s the planet. God does according to revelation. He is in control of planet earth, completely. but i definitely believe we should do our part in taking care of the wonderful earth God gave us. i do recycle and try very hard not to be wasteful. i just don’t buy the global warming movement due to the agendas of such people as al gore.
more to come.
May 21st, 2008 at 5:57 pm
geoffrey, did you listen to this link by chance? it covers so much. i learned some interesting new things from it:
http://www.metrobible.org/mp3/21ChosenWillBelieve.mp3
i’d love to know your thoughts. if you haven’t yet, will you please listen to it in the meantime (all the way til he finishes), while i go thru your posts?
May 21st, 2008 at 7:53 pm
there’s a lot to read thru and lots of points being made. one thing that comes to my mind geoffrey, is you point out areas of biblical discrepancies (in your opinion, which by the way, i never admitted the bible is flawed because i do not believe it is, anywhere. i was referring to your perspective, not mine.) but you are failing to see and understand that christianity is a personal, one on one relationship with you Creator who so deeply loves you. when you come to understand exactly how God loves you, you will develop a change of heart. you will not accept testimonies from the 3 of us in here who all agree that our lives have been changed since we have all accepted who Jesus was, and the gift He offers us, as proof. do you believe any history books then? you have not met the authors who are no longer alive, but you will believe what others write in history books, just not the authors of the bible, which is ironic given the remarkable status of the bible, it’s books, it’s survival, it’s growth, and it’s perfectly harmonious story written over hundreds and hundreds of years. it’s quite amazing how the prophet isaiah described Jesus to a T, then 700 years later, Jesus fulfilled the prophesy written about him, to a T! but go ahead and overlook that… (i know, those scales are in the way!)
you are overlooking the proof we share with you, the testimonies of how our lives were changed since our conversion. you are overlooking how YOU are PROOF POSITIVE of how the bible describes a non-believer (those heaps of verses above). you are overlooking overwhelming evidence in 100% support of the bible, in its favor, and you are overlooking the most important thing of all…. how much God loves you!
yes, there is wonderful gain in studying nature. the difference is, i see God in every aspect of nature, HIS nature, HIS creation. you see, well, what your eyes covered in scales can see, which obviously isn’t the creator. i’m telling you, when those scales come off you will see the world in a whole new way.
you made a comment i would like you to please prove… you said the bible failed. please tell us where?
May 22nd, 2008 at 8:49 am
Georffrey,
May I quote you, and then ask you to tell me if you are referring to science and/or evolution?
You stated, “I have studied your Bible, but you have not studied the source of my beliefs. I have studied both, you have studied only one, and yet you tell me that my beliefs are wrong. How do you know, if you haven’t studied them? ”
I am not sure what source you are referring to, but I have a son who is a non-believer and his questions and tribulations have caused me to examine the world and the belief systems that exist in an indepth way that I probably would not have done, otherwise.
I have studied evolution and find it lacking.
Science is a tool for discovery, not a religion. I have studied it as well and find that while it is a great tool or method of discovery, it is, however, very limited. Medical science is a good example of the limitations. We make great strides, only to find that our lack of knowledge and/or wrong conclusions have forced us to pay an enormous price. Since early medicine, we have actually killed patients while trying to save them and continue to do so, even today. We have made few gains in extending the number of years a man might live since the number was set by God, and the quality is extremely questionable.
We have not done much better with environmental science. We go from declaring that the human race is doomed due to global cooling to doomed due to global warming within a fifty year period. We declare a species extinct, only to have it turn up in an unexpected place. We are told one year that a substance is helpful and the next that it is harmful.
Don’t get me wrong. I am not denying the advances mankind has made through science, but I do know that it is not the answer to all of mankind’s questions and problems.
As for religions, other than Christianity, they do not measure up. They do not offer a solution to mankind’s sin problem and they do not give mankind a way of knowing God and having a relationship with Him. They are methods of man attempting to reach God. Christianity is God reaching down to man and offering a way of redemption. While the others offer ways for man to try and appease God, Christianity is a way God made for mankind to be made right with God through His work on our behalf.
Why do we glorify God? Because the glory belongs to God. He is light, love, and truth. These are the things mankind needs in life for fulfillment, joy, and safety.
You asked Ron a question that has caused me to want to share something with you. On the suject of prophecy, you asked, “What one prophecy do you find particularly compelling?”
There is a prophecy that I find compelling that I want to share. It is found in the book of Daniel, but before I give it to you, I would like for you to think about our present day society. You often mention the advances made by science and I agree that we have learned an absolutely tremendous amount of information in the last century, particularly the last two decades and in the area of electronics. Also, consider the travel that is occurring around the world as I write this. Then read:
Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: MANY SHALL RUN TO AND FRO, AND KNOWLEDGE SHALL BE INCREASED.
There are many other jewels tucked away in the word of God, but this is one that seems so relevant to today’s world.
Thanks for reading my thoughts and conclusions.
Jan
May 22nd, 2008 at 10:25 am
another point i’d like to make about the muslim comment… yes, it’s a growing religion. but, as with any other ‘religions’ outside of Christianity, you need to look into their definitions of 1) God and 2) Jesus. islam’s allah is not the same God of the Christians holy bible. there are various, major differences. they also do not recognize Jesus as the Messiah.
the apostle paul writes:
“I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!” –Galations 1:6-8
still more to come.
May 28th, 2008 at 1:43 pm
Hi Jan,
I’m glad to be back. Thanks for your kind words. I too miss our conversation when I can’t get back to it as soon as I would like. I’ll deal with your first posting here, and your next one next.
Re: “The Bible does state that ‘Christ is the same yesterday, and today, and for ever.’ He did not change.”
And Re: “yes, he would have and did agree with all that the Father did including what happened at Jericho.”
Thank you for that straightforward answer and for not beating around the bush on this difficult question. I was surprised by your answer. I didn’t think that a Christian would believe Jesus capable of ordering the murder of innocent babies. But I agree with your logic: If Jesus is 100% obedient to his god, then one can reach no other conclusion but that he would have agreed with the killings, and would have ordered them if necessary, and even would have committed the killings himself if ordered to.
However, such behavior seems inconsistent with all of his other teachings about peace and loving thy neighbor. It is so paradoxical that I find it impossible to believe that both Jesuses existed in one person, unless he had multiple personalities, which I doubt anyone accepts.
So this is one issue on which I view the Bible as self-contradictory. It can’t say “Thou shalt not kill,” and “love everyone,” and then say “Nevermind. Go and kill the most innocent people on the planet.” What kind of a guide is this for life? How can anyone be faulted for not accepting both? Why should anyone rejecting the killing of live, post-natal babies be subjected to eternal torture in hell simply for thinking, “This is wrong!”
Furthermore, why would Jesus kill babies for his god? Why the slavish obedience? If my dad told me to do something like that, I’d think he was nuts! Why is it suddenly wonderful just because a god orders it? Why should I abandon all sense of morality just to please such a god, even if he DOES exist? I would not want to spend 2 seconds with such a creature, who, in all honesty, I would have to view as a maniac.
It defies logic on another level as well. If this god were all-powerful and all-good, couldn’t he come up with a better way to deal with these babies? Why not just add some extra land to the earth, so that the Israelites don’t have to take someone else’s land? If war and killing babies is the best idea he can come up with, then we’ve got big trouble with him in charge.
My best guess is that Joshua never received any orders from any god to go seize land and kill babies. It seems infinitely more likely that he told his people this convenient lie in order to rally them to wipe out everyone in Jericho (and other places) so that he could take over. This explanation requires no contortions of logic. And because the Jews won, they were able to paint their murderous acts heroically in the Old Testament, and it was their mythology that lived on. Had Jericho prevailed, their gods and traditions would have survived, probably displacing those of the Jews.
Re: “Would you, if you could get past or understand what happened at Jericho, change your mind about God?”
No, there are just too many reasons to believe that no god exists. The Jericho infanticides are only a part of it. Beyond that, the whole mythology doesn’t make sense:
First, the God character is all-knowing. That means that even before he creates the universe and mankind, he knows how everything is going to turn out. So why does he need to bother with creation? If his ultimate goal is to gather up all the good souls to live with him in eternal bliss, why not just proceed to that part of the plan? Surely he knows which souls are good. And why are there any bad souls? Did he goof when making them?
Next: sin. Again, he knows that Adam and Eve are going to eat the apple. So why does he get so mad when they do? And why does he convict all of their descendents of the crime? This makes no sense. It seems more likely that Adam and Eve never existed except in Jewish mythology, as a way to explain why, despite being the “chosen people,” they are still subject to bad things like disease, famine, etc. There are as many of these stories as there are religions.
It is often said that Jesus “took on” the sins of the world. Several times in this discussion, I have asked for some information on exactly how this “taking on” of sin occurred. What’s the mechanism?
And why was it necessary in your god’s plan for the Romans to kill Jesus? This seems like a hopelessly convoluted way to get rid of sin. Why not just create a holy vacuum cleaner to suck up all sin in the world? Why create sin in the first place? Why the need to transfer the sin to a human and kill the human? Or, if killing was necessary, why not transfer the sin to a tree and then have the Romans kill the tree? Also, why does your god not do the killing himself? As I’ve said previously, if only he had done his own killing, then humans would have never had to violate the “Don’t kill” commandment and your god would not have set the precedent for humans killing in his name. But since he supposedly had humans do the killing for him, any human can kill and say he/she is doing it for God, and no one can prove him/her wrong.
And why is Judas depicted as a bad guy, when he was playing a crucial role in God’s plan?
It seems much more likely that the Jews and the Romans who killed Jesus were not part of any divine plan, but that they killed him because he was a threat to them. Again, no contortions of logic needed.
Next: the virgin birth. Why is it so important that Jesus be born of a virgin? Is sex dirty? It seems far more likely that he was not born of a virgin, and that the story was written with the ancient idea of “virginity = purity” that is simply not true, and that the story is just one more in a string of “virgin birth” stories begun in earlier religions.
Next: miracles. Just plain hard to believe. The more fantastic the story, the more proof is needed. Why not send a new messiah every generation or so, so everyone can see them do miracles? I guarantee, your god would have a far greater conversion rate.
Next: the trinity. Three components of a single being, one of whom is the son of another. Again, this defies logic. It’s an idea that originated a few hundred years after Jesus died. Your god expects me to believe this?
Next: monotheism. How does one define a god? My simplest definition would be: A conscious entity that is capable of defying natural laws. If this is accurate, would not Satan be considered a god? How about the angels? How about the saints? I don’t think Judaism or Christianity are really monotheistic. There appear to be one main god and many minor gods.
Next: revelations. Sounds like someone had a bad LSD trip. Truly, that could explain Revelations. And I’m supposed to base my life on this mess? Does your god really think I’m so indiscriminate in my beliefs?
Those are just a few of the many things in the Bible that don’t make sense to me. And it troubles me to know that Christians teach their kids that there is something wrong with me and everyone else who cannot accept the Bible as the Ultimate Truth.
Re: “How do others who are Christian accept difficult passages like this [the baby-killing episodes of the Bible]?”
I am interested as well. Ron and Colleen, and anyone else, what do you think of these incidents?
Re: “The Bible calls Christ the living Word. He reveals the nature of God to us in a way that we cannot know it otherwise. When you receive this living Word, the written word will be easier for you.”
This is circular logic. Naturally it would be easier for me to believe the Bible if I already believed that Jesus was my savior. If I could convince myself that the Easter Bunny exists, it would be easier to believe writings about the Easter Bunny. But when the written word contradicts itself, then that alone is sufficient to prevent me from believing it.
Re: “While you are correct that other religions have spread, other religions seldom bring persecution… And yet, people are converted to Christ every day.”
Many other religions have experienced extreme persecution, sometimes at the hands of Christians. In Spain, of course, the Spanish Inquisition persecuted all non-Christians. Christians have persecuted Muslims, Buddhists, atheists, and others. Jews, of course, have been persecuted all over the place. The fact that people are converted to Christianity everyday says absolutely nothing about the truth of Christianity, unless you determine truth by popularity. But advertise anything, and you’ll get customers. If truth were the reason for conversion, everyone would believe in evolution, which is a scientifically proven truth.
Re: “Satan is at enmity with God. He constantly attempts to stop the spread of Christianity.”
Why is it that your god will kill babies with ease, but will not kill Satan? How does this make sense?
Re: “If I buy my son a car and I offer to give it to him, he would have to accept it and sign the title. I can say, “The car is yours.” If I paid for it, he has no price to pay for it to be his… This is all that is required of me to receive eternal life with Christ. I must receive what He has given me.”
For this “receiving the car” analogy to truly represent the “receiving of eternal life,” you need to have similar requirements for both. Specifically, before you give the car to your son, you need to require your son to believe something that he cannot believe. Under this requirement, I would not be able to accept the car. “Receiving” Christ is a misnomer that makes it sound as if one is simply accepting delivery of a package. It omits the requirement that one first swallow a raft of contradiction and absence of proof.
Re: “Romans 10:9 puts it this way, “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”
Or, in other words, “Just believe the way I tell you, and no one gets hurt.” If I were in the shoes of Jesus, I would say, “Don’t believe me. Believe the proof, which I have published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal.” Why not? How better to confound that evil scientific establishment? Sit down with a panel of scientists and magicians (seriously, because magicians know about trickery), pass every test with flying colors, and be done with it!
Re: “There were many eye witnesses who testify that He was raised from the dead. There are millions who have the witness in their hearts and lives.”
There were many eyewitnesses who believed that “psychic surgeons” were removing tumors without cutting, when in fact they were using trickery. There were many eyewitnesses who believed that televangelist Robert Tilton was correctly identifying their illnesses by receiving the information from God, when he was actually receiving it from his wife via radio. The tobacco industry testified for years that they didn’t know that cigarettes were harmful, but their own documents proved they were lying. The bottom line is simply this: Don’t believe ANYTHING without proof. Even me!
Re: “Also, in Romans 1:21 we learn that no one is condemned who does not know:
“Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.”
I don’t quite follow what you mean here.
Re: “I and others pray for you”
As I said to Ron, I appreciate the thought, but I have no faith in prayers. If you do, then please spend your time praying for the millions in this world struggling for their lives.
May 28th, 2008 at 4:04 pm
Hey Geoffrey,
I am not going to spend so much time on this because I am not able to argue you into believing as I said at the beginning.
I do want to clear up a few things:
Re: “Also, in Romans 1:21 we learn that no one is condemned who does not know:
“Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.”
Geoffrey says, “I don’t quite follow what you mean here.”
I did not make the statement, God did. When we refuse to accept truth, we become unable to recognize it eventually.
Another statement was :
RE – Go and kill the most innocent people on the planet.” What kind of a guide is this for life?
Geoffrey, I hope you are helping fight against the slaughter of unborn babies by our society as you seem to clearly think it is wrong.
I have to remind myself that your complaints and charges are not against me, or Ron, or Colleen. You are angry with the One who created you and you think you know better how to run the universe than He. You decide that the creature should dictate to the Creator how things should be done. Perhaps the fact that if you believe that you were created by a Holy God then you must be accountable to Him, prevents you from allowing yourself to believe. Submission is required and that is difficult.
Multitudes of great theologians and scholars have read the account of Jerchico and have remained faithful to God because they know Him.
I look at God’s creation and redemption and praise Him. You look at the same things and shake your fist.
If you believe that evolution can explain the origin of life, the universes and beyond, and the soul of man, you have great faith, not proof. You DO believe something that cannot be proven.
God is good and how he deals with his creation is really His business. No one is forcing you to believe or receive. It does sadden me that you must survive with no hope for anything more than what is offered in this life and after that the judgement.
Jan
May 29th, 2008 at 8:29 am
5-28-08
Here it is laid out as simple as i can put it, or know how to put it. It really does not matter what you or i choose to believe… that will not change the reality of who God is, what He has done, what His plan for mankind is, what will ultimately happen, or WHY any of this is here for us to question in the first place. It is God’s doing, God’s decision, and He says He does everything for His glory–including creating mankind that He takes delight in.
All i know is, God changed my life. My relationship with Jesus gives me so much hope. I see what He has done for me, and i realize i will never be worthy enough to enter into God’s heavenly realm… not without Jesus paying the price for my sin, just as He did. We are a fallen mankind, period. It’s a fact we cannot change, and God explains why it is so in the book of Genesis.
God always existed. No one can explain why or how, but again, it is just the way it is. Believe it or not, it won’t change what is. No human being will offer the one magical piece of proof or evidence to make a non-believer suddenly go, NOW I SEE IT. That will never happen. God will open the skeptic’s eyes in His own timing. Some things you just can’t think too much about, because your brain will not wrap around it and you will become frustrated. In those times… sit back, relax, and trust in the all-mighty Creator who says He has everything in His control. (big sigh.)
God created man for his pleasure. Evil stepped into the picture (in Heaven, Lucifer and His comrades decided to be like God, and God said ‘I don’t think so” and cast them into Hell. Now we have Satan a.k.a Lucifer and his demons. All fallen angels)… and God allowed His creation to be put to the test. God wanted to know if His created ones loved Him enough or not, to trust Him and obey Him fully. Man failed the test, and all generations live with the consequence to the sin of Adam and Eve. I am certain they were remorseful and repentant, but the consequence still remains and now we all are faced with death. Adam and Eve were told not to eat of the tree of knowledge, and they did. I believe they would have lived forever had they not disobeyed God. Just as they were warned not to fall into sin (and give in to temptation), so are we, that we not become ensnared in Satan’s traps. But we still do, and we still have consequences to deal with. Christian or not.
Here’s the cool thing though… God never leaves us as we face our consequences, nor in our suffering. God promises we will all suffer. He also promises to be there with us, to help carry us when we are too weak to walk. God will forgive us of our sins we repent for (being truly sorry in our hearts). He is faithful to us, even though we are not faithful to obey and always follow Him. It is because of His unconditional love, He waits for us over and over and over again.
God loves His creation and is saddened when we disobey His commands. His commands are there for our good. They are commandments that are good! If everyone followed the 10 commandments, there would indeed, be peace on earth. See what rebellion against God leads to? No peace on earth, heartache, pain, suffering, chaos and death. God knew in advance this would be… yes. He knows the future. The bible tells us He also knows how many hairs are on each of our heads. That is how much He pays attention to each individual. He is so very personal.
No one asked to be born. But we are here. We were created. No one can deny we exist. ‘Something’ made us, ‘something’ put us here. I believe it to be God as He says. Because His word, and only His word (the bible) flows from beginning to end with perfection. What some cannot fully understand however, they dismiss all together. It is usually due to their lack of biblical knowledge. The bible gives us all the answers. We are given instructions to go thru this life as best as possible, if only we would listen! We are an arrogant and stubborn mankind. We don’t want to be told we are not born of a good and righteous nature, yet we are told by God just the opposite–that we are born of a sinful nature, corrupt and destined for death. Well, okay then God, what can i do to be righteous? Glad you asked, He says. Believe in me, and believe in Jesus! Trust in Him. He paid the debt for you, that you can never pay. Believe in Him, what He did for you, and you are sealed in my hands forever.
A quick interjection about the bible, God’s word… It was written over a period of 1400 to 1800 years by more than 40 different authors. No book holds the status the bible holds. No book can brilliantly fit together like a perfect puzzle from beginning to end, the way the bible does. I think upon it as impossible, unless it was God-breathed. After all, He is God, and He can inspire man to write His book of instructions if He so desires. He gave some of the authors perfect memories of their encounters with Jesus. He also promises to protect the bible, which He has. He also warns against believing in other books/authors/prophets who come along with claims of being from God. Which they certainly have surfaced. He also calls Satan the great deceiver… and what better way for mass deception, than thru the confusion of various religions. God completed the bible thru Revelation. Anything after that is false, period. God says so, and God does not teach confusion. 2000 years later and the bible is still the best-selling book. There is something magnificent to be said about that book!
You see, God saw we weren’t doing so well down here, so he intervened in a drastic way. He made Himself flesh, born of a miraculous, virgin, and walked the earth. The virgin birth represents purity in the highest form. Jesus was pure in every way–blameless and sinless. So now God is here, and we can see Him, touch Him, walk with Him and talk with Him. We can witness His miracles, learn His teachings, watch His death and see Him after His resurrection. He has no blemish. He is perfect. He is the risen God.
God in Jesus came here and was tempted in every way we are, so we can’t use that excuse against Him–that He doesn’t know what we are going thru. He was also tortured beyond measure, so we can’t say to Him, you don’t care that I am hurting. You don’t understand. He has been there, so He does understand. He had to be tempted and He had to suffer until His death. We all face death, we all die. Jesus went thru everything we go thru, so as to fully experience life here on earth, as man. We can relate to Him and He to us. The relationship has been established. It is ongoing…
Because Jesus didn’t stay dead… He ascended back to Heaven, and He dwells in us. He lives inside of those who call upon Him. He did this as a way for us, so we too, can conquer death if we just believe in Him. The bible explains how sin leads to death. In other words, we will die in our sins. UNLESS, we cling to Jesus who is no longer dead, but alive. The symbolism there, is that thru Him, we too can have eternal life. Without Him, we are dead.
To conclude, we are all destined for Hell, for judgement passed upon us based on the fact we are not pure, we are not righteous, and nothing imperfect can enter God’s perfect Heaven. God is wonderful, for graciously providing us with a way to escape judgement. He allowed the death of His precious, beloved Son to impute righteousness upon any one willing to accept His gift! WOW! What an awesome, amazing God. It’s an easy way… it is by nothing of ourselves. We don’t ever have to worry about being good enough to go to Heaven when we die, because the truth be told in scriptures, not one of is good enough. What a relief! Trusting is Jesus is all that is necessary. That’s it. Done. Once you do that, you are forever his. It must come from within… from the depths of your heart. God knows sincere and insincere beliefs. No catch, no gimmicks. Just believe in Jesus, God as man, that He took on your judgement on the cross, and put your sins to death with Him. The bible tells us the path to heaven is narrow… to enter at the narrow gates. In other words, the truth is, less will inherit heaven than the whole of all men. It may not be the biggest religion, or the most glamorous (Christianity)… but it promises salvation and a personal, one-on-one relationship with God Himself. It promises a way to approach God, to be held in His arms, and live with Him forever. It promises forgiveness when we disobey or give in to temptation. Aside form the natural consequence of our sins, God does not punish us. Once your heart recognizes your wrong-doings, God knows your hurt and never again remembers upon that sin. How truly great is that!
You can choose which angle you wish to view God from, but He makes all things clear and broadens the wisdom of those who come to know Him. I know Him as my personal, loving deliverer i will one day get to stand face to face with. I look forward to the first moment i see Him, and He looks at me and smiles, hugs me, and welcomes me into His kingdom.
How devastatingly tragic the notion of facing Him, and having Him look upon one and say, “depart from me. I never knew you.” No pleading in all the world will change His mind. It is too late once you die, it is too late then. He calls each of us while we have life, while he graciously gives us our next breath.
The bottom line is, God is good. God is love. He has a gift for you, one that will last forever. It is free for you, but it cost His Son His life. Honor God, and take the gift before you, while you live to accept Him. He will bless you, and mold you into the likeness of Christ more and more each day. You will experience a heart filled with promise and hope in this decaying world we live in. You will look beyond here and now, and begin to focus on the world to come… your eternal place in Heaven. You will see nature in a different way, and give God praises and glory for the wonders He created. WHen you experience pain, you will be able to cry out to God and feel His presence with you when you think you are alone. You will experience love, mercy, grace, worship. You will have your own personal experience with God who loves you and draws you to Him. Words won’t be able to fully express the joy, the delight and the comfort from knowing God personally. You have two choices, take Him or leave Him. I’d hate for anyone to suffer forever, because their limited knowledge and lack of understanding had them reject their omnipotent Creator! I’d much rather err in obedience to Him, than err by my own ignorance and arrogance, then pay the eternal price. (Forever apart from the presence of God and all His glory, and cast into the “pit” of hell where evil dwells.) Sounds harsh, but reality is just that way. Right now, God is extending His hand out to give you a way out. Are you going to take hold while you have the chance? Let is start with basic trust. Give in. Say, ‘Okay God, i am here and ready to listen. Speak to my heart, reveal yourself to me. I humble myself before you and want to know your truth. Give me Jesus. Show me i am nothing without Him in my life. Hold me up to the light and expose me for what i am. Show me my filth that needs to be washed away by the blood of your Son. I choose you God. I need you to guide me in this life. I need you to teach me to trust in you and learn to do what you want me to do. Here i am God, change me.’
That is a prayer worth saying. But you must mean it. As your relationship with Him grows, He will fill in the missing pieces. If you do, without a doubt, your heart will be transformed.
In the love of Christ, i write,
~Colleen
May 30th, 2008 at 11:00 am
geoffrey, one more time, here’s this:
http://www.metrobible.org/mp3/21ChosenWillBelieve.mp3
have you listened to it yet? all of it? it says a lot…
please share your input.
May 30th, 2008 at 4:59 pm
Colleen,
Have you been to the web site I posted?
May 30th, 2008 at 5:13 pm
hi geoffrey,
um, i will… but i posted mine first (#143), so if we go in order, then you should go ahead and listen to it. it’s only 4-5 minutes long. i know you can handle it. =)
once you reply, i’ll post my opinion of your links on post #145.
i definitely want to know what you think… so i’ll be checking for your response.
more soon! happy friday, all!!
May 30th, 2008 at 5:15 pm
i’m sorry, but the photo of the fat lady was hilarious. i can’t believe someone paid that much for it… maybe their aunt painted it or something, and they are very very rich.
May 30th, 2008 at 5:18 pm
one more…
geoffrey,
i skimmed this link before, and said earlier that there is way to much going on in there, that i can even comprehend. tell you what, i’ll give 5 minutes to your link, the same amount of time for you to listen to mine. can you please give me something more specific to go to, than a link that takes me to many more links?
thanks.
June 3rd, 2008 at 3:22 pm
I actually posted mine first, up at #35 and even earlier. But OK, I’ll give your site 5 minutes if you give mine the same (though I hope you’ll find it worth more than 5 minutes). I would recommend starting here: http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/evo_14
Then just keep hitting “Next,” and before you know it, you’ll be an expert in evolution! And let me know if you have any questions.
June 4th, 2008 at 9:05 am
okay, i’ll start with this link. i’ll start with 5 minutes and see if this continues leading me to read more.
please share your thoughts on tommy’s 5 minute answer, and i’ll reply once i do some reading.
thanks,
~colleen
June 11th, 2008 at 11:12 am
you know what geoffrey, this is silly. i skimmed thru about the first 6 pages. i’m honestly just not interested in reading this site, not because i don’t believe in evolution to certain degrees, but because it simply doesn’t hold my interest. it’s like i’m back in high school falling asleep in science class trying to read this stuff.
i honestly don’t understand what it is you are trying to “sell” in here. i have no problem believing things evolve and change in time, but there is no way this universe evolved from nothing, if that is what you are getting at. if that is the ultimate end of your beliefs, i don’t know how you can back that up, being a guy who adamantly needs proof and all.
beating a dead horse here… but we are here, showing you an offering from God that is so great, that you can actually have! you are here, offering us a belief system that is so empty, that is so meaningless, that offers you and me, jann, ron or anyone, absolutely nothing. i just don’t understand why we are even debating this stuff, based on that alone. you want to bring us into your side, into your belief system, but why? it’s depressing! it basically says we are masses of nothing! we have no end other than rotting in the dirt. your beliefs or theories offer no hope, no God, no order, no plan, no eternity, no love, no relationship with our loving Creator… not even anything so great to extend to us while we are here on earth. nothing! it’s entirely empty and depressing. why would anyone here trade in the promise, hope, love and beauty of a personal relationship with God, for something that offers nothing? we’d have to be insane to do so. seriously, what do you think is so great about your beliefs? because what i see, is satan trying desperately to rob you of true joy. you are sold on his lies, i hate to say, and i do hope and pray your heart changes.
have you listened to tommy’s answer yet? if not, i thought you were here to be open to new suggestions and ideas. i am leading you to a great one… yet you haven’t responded to it. it may or may not change your mind at all, but he addressed terrific points that are general and good for unbelievers to take in. it may at least get your wheels spinning and get you thinking more.
lastly, there is no way–not in the slightest chance ever, that you will change the minds of us with what you are sharing in here. the common thing the 3 of us have, is a living God dwelling inside of us, and that can never change–He will never leave us. therefore, our very natures will never turn away from Him for another–especially a system of theories that offers the opposite of the beauty and glory of God. what you are failing to understand, is He is a living God whose Holy Spirit lives inside those to come to Him.
we’re down to ours – believing in the promise of hope and eternity with Him, or yours – offering meaninglessness, nothingness and no relationship with God…
no thank you geoffrey.
June 24th, 2008 at 3:13 pm
Hi Colleen,
Re: “i’m honestly just not interested in reading this site, not because i don’t believe in evolution to certain degrees, because it simply doesn’t hold my interest.”
Well, I have to give you credit for at least trying, unlike some, who are afraid I’m Satan’s little helper and won’t even go near a web site that I suggest. At least now you know where you can find answers if you ever want to learn more. An informed population is sorely needed in this world, given that some still don’t believe in proven phenomena such as global warming.
Re: “i have no problem believing things evolve and change in time.”
Then you, Jan, and I all believe in evolution. Ron still does not.
Re: “there is no way this universe evolved from nothing, if that is what you are getting at. if that is the ultimate end of your beliefs, i don’t know how you can back that up, being a guy who adamantly needs proof and all.”
The question of where the universe came from is different from the question of where life came from. Evolution explains how we got here after the universe was born. Honestly, no one knows where the universe came from. As you mentioned in post #40 and elsewhere, there is strong evidence that it took its current form as the result of a “big bang.” However, what preceded and caused the Big Bang is unknown. I’ve said above that I believe the universe always existed in some form or another, so I do not believe that it “came from nothing,” as you say. However, I have no proof; I believe it because it makes the most sense. If a more solid, sensible idea arises, then my belief will automatically change accordingly. I have no vested interest in supporting one idea over another. I don’t believe I’ll go to hell for believing the “wrong” thing. I just want to learn what happened. If anyone can prove that one or more gods created the universe, I will happily follow the evidence. But there is no more evidence for your creation story than there is for mine or the the many others I listed above in post #52.
So you may ask, “Why not believe that a god created the universe then, if no one really knows one way or the other?” Two reasons, mainly:
1) There appears to be no god in existence today, so I do not believe that a god has ever existed;
2) The existence of a god seems far less plausible than the alternative. After all, which is more likely:
A) that the universe always existed (or came from nothing), or
B) that a god, which is infinitely more complex than the universe, always existed (or came from nothing)?
Because the simpler explanation is usually the truth, I easily side with the first possibility. Furthermore, you and I both accept the idea that something, either your god or the universe, has always existed. And if one accepts the idea of infinite existence, one should have no trouble believing that the universe has always existed, and then there is no need for a creator.
June 24th, 2008 at 4:24 pm
Re: “we are here, showing you an offering from God”
Yes, and why isn’t your god here? Why can’t he make the offer himself? Why does he expect me to believe you, when you can’t even prove your case? If your god “delights in us,” as you claim, why won’t he lift an almighty finger to show himself? Again, the simplest answer is that there is no god.
Re: “you are here, offering us a belief system that is so empty, that is so meaningless, that offers you and me, jann, ron or anyone, absolutely nothing…. it’s depressing!
The only thing I preach is reason. I’m sorry you find reason so repulsive. I’m sorry I can’t offer you a thrilling fairy-tale with magical creatures, a grand wizard protector, and a land without death. All I can offer is the suggestion that you study the world around you. Learn that which has been proven, so that you can better understand how your universe really works. Every citizen of this earth has the obligation to understand it, so that they can take better care of it, and so they can teach their children to do the same. But you say that learning about this beautiful, natural world is “silly” and “simply doesn’t hold [your] interest”. It is a shame that you are so disinterested in the beauty of life here on earth, and in how we can maintain it. To quote Albert Camus: “For if there is a sin against life, it consists perhaps not so much in despairing of life as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this life.”
You call my belief system “meaningless.” This is an empty wish on your part. You claim to know what you haven’t bothered to learn. You are in no position to criticise my beliefs in nature and natural laws, because you haven’t studied them. You do not understand how natural laws control the universe, because you haven’t studied them. Naturally, if one bases one’s life on “Cinderella” and never looks any further, then he/she will not understand the views of those who have gone beyond “Cinderella.”
To me, nothing could be more meaningless than bowing and scraping before the altar of a totally made-up creature. Nevermind that the mythology surrounding this creature tells you that it’s OK to kill innocent, healthy, post-natal babies while seizing the property of their parents. Yes, that sure is a loving creator you have there. So please answer my question, which I’ve asked a number of times: Would you do as Joshua did? Would you kill babies if so ordered by your god? Jan believes that Jesus would have. Do you agree?
Meaningless? Life has whatever meaning we give it. The ultimate waste of time is to worship nothingness, follow imaginary orders, and live in fear that we might not get into an imaginary paradise. Alternatively, we can spend life pursuing truth, improving the world, and enjoying the beauty of life. Life that is based on reality is as deep and rich as that reality. You believe that exploring reality is “silly,” so you won’t explore it. And therefore you will never know how deep and rich it can be. You are left believing in the unproven unnatural world, which is inconsistent with what has been proven and even inconsistent with itself. God is all good, but he kills innocent babies for the sake of seizing property. That makes sense. Jesus is love, but he would have supported the Jericho baby-killings, and would have even committed them if asked. God is all-knowing, but he’s surprised that Adam and Eve eat the apple. God is perfect, but his creations aren’t, and he doesn’t know which ones are good until after they die. The Bible is perfect, but it has not been translated perfectly, and it contradicts itself to boot, so it’s not perfect.
Thus, Christianity seems to be nothing more than an elaborate hoax. As in the Wizard of Oz, one must pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.
June 24th, 2008 at 4:25 pm
Around and around we go. I want to jump back in because this was a fascinating post, GK. It seems to say you are choosing to believe one thing over another. Because it makes the most sense _to you_. Again, to repeat myself, I do believe in the micro “evolution” as somewhat stated in the diagrams. What I don’t believe and they don’t show is upward evolution where we see the addition of never before seen generation. The kind needed for Darwinian evolution. But we’ve beat the horse-osaurus to death. See post 21.
Here’s a question for you. And how you answer depends on whether we are just putting “words in the wind.” or casting our pearls before swine.
Are you open to the idea that their might be a God who will judge you according to your sins on the day of Judgment? Because if not, there is really no point in our debating anything. All anyone from my side can do is pray God softens your heart.
Oh and Yes, I am closed on the topic of Darwinian Evolution. I have examined the a great deal of evidence and found it lacking. It also offers no hope to the bigger questions of why we are here and what purpose we have in this life.
June 24th, 2008 at 4:43 pm
Yes, I believe that death is final. If so, that’s just the price we pay for life, and it’s well worth it. And therefore, we’d better make the most of this life. But who really knows? Maybe there is some natural process by which a consciousness persists after death. That would be nice. There’s no proof for it, of course, so I’m not going to base my life on the assumption that it’s waiting for me, and I’m certainly not going to believe any else’s made-up rules for getting to that made-up place called heaven. Nobody alive has been there, so nobody alive can possibly know if it exists, much less how to get there.
June 24th, 2008 at 5:02 pm
Hi Colleen,
Re: “i’m honestly just not interested in reading this site, not because i don’t believe in evolution to certain degrees, because it simply doesn’t hold my interest.”
Well, I have to give you credit for at least trying, unlike some, who are afraid I’m Satan’s little helper and won’t even go near a web site that I suggest. At least now you know where you can find answers if you ever want to learn more. An informed population is sorely needed in this world, given that some still don’t believe in proven phenomena such as global warming.
Re: “i have no problem believing things evolve and change in time.”
Then you, Jan, and I all believe in evolution. Ron still does not.
Re: “there is no way this universe evolved from nothing, if that is what you are getting at. if that is the ultimate end of your beliefs, i don’t know how you can back that up, being a guy who adamantly needs proof and all.”
The question of where the universe came from is different from the question of where life came from. Evolution explains how we got here after the universe was born. Honestly, no one knows where the universe came from. As you mentioned in post #40 and elsewhere, there is strong evidence that it took its current form as the result of a “big bang.” However, what preceded and caused the Big Bang is unknown. I’ve said above that I believe the universe always existed in some form or another, so I do not believe that it “came from nothing,” as you say. However, I have no proof; I believe it because it makes the most sense. If a more solid, sensible idea arises, then my belief will automatically change accordingly. I have no vested interest in supporting one idea over another. I don’t believe I’ll go to hell for believing the “wrong” thing. I just want to learn what happened. If anyone can prove that one or more gods created the universe, I will happily follow the evidence. But there is no more evidence for your creation story than there is for mine or the the many others I listed above in post #52.
So you may ask, “Why not believe that a god created the universe then, if no one really knows one way or the other?” Two reasons, mainly:
1) There appears to be no god in existence today, so I do not believe that a god has ever existed;
2) The existence of a god seems far less plausible than the alternative. After all, which is more likely:
A) that the universe always existed (or came from nothing), or
B) that a god, which is infinitely more complex than the universe, always existed (or came from nothing)?
Because the simpler explanation is usually the truth, I easily side with the first possibility. Furthermore, you and I both accept the idea that something, either your god or the universe, has always existed. And if one accepts the idea of infinite existence, one should have no trouble believing that the universe has always existed, and then there is no need for a creator.
Re: “we are here, showing you an offering from God”
Yes, and why isn’t your god here? Why can’t he make the offer himself? Why does he expect me to believe you, when you can’t even prove your case? If your god “delights in us,” as you claim, why won’t he lift an almighty finger to show himself? Again, the simplest answer is that there is no god.
Re: “you are here, offering us a belief system that is so empty, that is so meaningless, that offers you and me, jann, ron or anyone, absolutely nothing…. it’s depressing!
The only thing I preach is reason. I’m sorry you find reason so repulsive. I’m sorry I can’t offer you a thrilling fairy-tale with magical creatures, a grand wizard protector, and a land without death. All I can offer is the suggestion that you study the world around you. Learn that which has been proven, so that you can better understand how your universe really works. Every citizen of this earth has the obligation to understand it, so that they can take better care of it, and so they can teach their children to do the same. But you say that learning about this beautiful, natural world is “silly” and “simply doesn’t hold [your] interest”. It is a shame that you are so disinterested in the beauty of life here on earth, and in how we can maintain it. To quote Albert Camus: “For if there is a sin against life, it consists perhaps not so much in despairing of life as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this life.”
You call my belief system “meaningless.” This is an empty wish on your part. You claim to know what you haven’t bothered to learn. You are in no position to criticise my beliefs in nature and natural laws, because you haven’t studied them. You do not understand how natural laws control the universe, because you haven’t studied them. Naturally, if one bases one’s life on “Cinderella” and never looks any further, then he/she will not understand the views of those who have gone beyond “Cinderella.”
To me, nothing could be more meaningless than bowing and scraping before the altar of a totally made-up creature. Nevermind that the mythology surrounding this creature tells you that it’s OK to kill innocent, healthy, post-natal babies while seizing the property of their parents. Yes, that sure is a loving creator you have there. So please answer my question, which I’ve asked a number of times: Would you do as Joshua did? Would you kill babies if so ordered by your god? Jan believes that Jesus would have. Do you agree?
Meaningless? Life has whatever meaning we give it. The ultimate waste of time is to worship nothingness, follow imaginary orders, and live in fear that we might not get into an imaginary paradise. Alternatively, we can spend life pursuing truth, improving the world, and enjoying the beauty of life. Life that is based on reality is as deep and rich as that reality. You believe that exploring reality is “silly,” so you won’t explore it. And therefore you will never know how deep and rich it can be. You are left believing in the unproven unnatural world, which is inconsistent with what has been proven and even inconsistent with itself. God is all good, but he kills innocent babies for the sake of seizing property. That makes sense. Jesus is love, but he would have supported the Jericho baby-killings, and would have even committed them if asked. God is all-knowing, but he’s surprised that Adam and Eve eat the apple. God is perfect, but his creations aren’t, and he doesn’t know which ones are good until after they die. The Bible is perfect, but it has not been translated perfectly, and it contradicts itself to boot, so it’s not perfect.
Thus, Christianity seems to be nothing more than an elaborate hoax. As in the Wizard of Oz, one must pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.
Yes, I believe that death is final. If so, that’s just the price we pay for life, and it’s well worth it. And therefore, we’d better make the most of this life. But who really knows? Maybe there is some natural process by which a consciousness persists after death. That would be nice. There’s no proof for it, of course, so I’m not going to base my life on the assumption that it’s waiting for me, and I’m certainly not going to believe any else’s made-up rules for getting to that made-up place called heaven. Nobody alive has been there, so nobody alive can possibly know if it exists, much less how to get there.
Re: “have you listened to tommy’s answer yet?”
Yes. And I’m sorry, but he’s just another preacher trying to control people by waving the Bible in their faces. Not surprisingly, he uses the Bible as his source for everything, and he claims that his interpretation of that book is the One True interpretation. He offers zero proof of his claims, such as: “All men are aware of god in conscience and in nature.” In other words, the Bible says that everyone believes in the Bible’s god, whether they say so or not. It’s clearly wishful thinking. One would have to conclude from Nelson’s pitch that anyone who says they don’t believe in god is just plain lying. Nevermind that the Bible is so self-contradictory that many people cannot bring themselves to believe it. Every religion claims that it is the One True religion. Tommy Nelson’s religion is no different.
Other Tommy Nelson quotes:
Nelson: “The Bible does not teach free will; I’m sorry, but that is an American institution.”
Reply: This raises an important point: If the Bible is perfect, why are there so many different interpretations? According to http://christianity.about.com/od/denominations/p/christiantoday.htm, there are approximately 38,000 Christian denominations in the world. How can that be, if all are following the same book, which supposedly communicates your god’s word with perfect clarity? Obviously, its clarity is not perfect. Therefore, it cannot be the perfect word of a perfect god. More likely, the Bible is the creation of ordinary humans and is as flawed as we are.
Nelson: “Those who do not please god are dead to him.”
Reply: The living cannot be dead to an imaginary character. The imaginary character is the one that is dead to the living.
Nelson: “God is as glorified by the preaching of the ex-sinner who has been converted as he is by the conversion of the wicked… So he uses evangelism and prayer as the means by which he accomplishes this divine end.”
Reply: This statement serves to glorify the evangelist himself by painting himself as a tool of his god. He wants people to believe that his words are really the words of their god, and therefore that his words must be obeyed. In reality, he is using their god as his tool for controlling them.
Now back to your other points.
Re: “our very natures will never turn away from Him for another–especially a system of theories that offers the opposite of the beauty and glory of God.”
My beliefs are in the beauty and glory of nature, which is there for all to see, as long as humans don’t destroy it. If that is the opposite of your beliefs, then I’ll side with nature.
Re: “He is a living God whose Holy Spirit lives inside those to come to Him.”
You can’t come anywhere close to proving this statement. Without independent proof, even people making such claims cannot distinguish them from self-delusion. Self-delusion has the power to make people feel a certain way, anywhere from paranoic to supremely blissful. You cannot distinguish your bliss created by a grand wizard living inside you from bliss created by self-delusion. “I just know” isn’t proof and does not rule out self-delusion. People suffering from self-delusion often fear learning about things outside of their illusory world, because such learning could dispel their delusion.
Re: “no thank you geoffrey”
Colleen, although I would like you to learn more about the world around you, I do not believe it would be safe for any Christian to just up and immediately become an atheist. The only source of morality for Christians is the Bible. If a Christian were to give that up, they would not know right from wrong. Lacking a moral compass, and they could become a danger to themselves or others. Therefore, until you learn the fundemental, non-Biblical standards for being a good person, and the reasons behind them, please stick with Christianity.
June 24th, 2008 at 7:42 pm
Geoffrey,
I had actually decided to end my part in this discussion as it seems to be going nowhere and there is no point in arguing. Since you brought my name up and have stated that I believe certain things, I am going to post this last comment.
It appears to me that you not only seek to pick a fight with Ron and me, you are attempting to pick a fight with God. You are actually one of the reasons some people might believe the Bible because it does say that in the last days there will be scoffers. 2 Peter 3:3 Perhaps that is because you really would like for Him to reveal Himself to you in a way that satisfies you, I don’t know about that.
You stated that I believe in evolution and I want you to know that I believe that when God spoke His word and said, “Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and every fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.” this is exactly what happened. I believe that mankind, particularly those who study science, have discovered some of the ways He brought forth life and they mistakenly believe that this happens as a natural process. You believe whatever you want to, but I believe that God’s spoken word brought forth life. As with everything in nature, He put natural laws in place to sustain and continue the process which may account for change WITHIN a species. Call it adaptation, evolution, or whatever you want, but it was put in place by Almighty God.
As for what Jesus would or would not do, He knows, not I. Do you know that what I believe is really not important to anything or anybody other than myself. What is important is truth. Jesus Christ proclaims to God the Father that His word is truth. John 17:17. John tells us that Jesus is the living Word. If you really want to know more about Jesus read the book of John. I disagree with Colleen that you should read or listen to websites. God’s word has power and that is where you must go if you are going to come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. A good place to start is the book gospel of John.
June 24th, 2008 at 9:07 pm
Hi Jan, welcome back!
I don’t view this as a fight. This is a discussion. What I am trying to do is to point out inconsistancies in the Bible, and also in religious beliefs.
Regarding whether Jesus would or would not kill babies, your beliefs do matter, because murder is a pretty important subject. How did this come up? I described to you a discrepancy I saw between the “God is love” claim and your god’s order to to kill babies, an order Joshua carried out. The Bible offers no resolution to these two personalities of your god, including the Book of John to which you refer me. The only way for me to resolve this question is to ask Christians. Is that OK? Any Christian who can’t answer this question is in the dark with me and should acknowledge that the Bible seems self-contradictory.
Re: “[God] put natural laws in place”
Do you have proof of this? Given the numerous self-contradictions of the Bible, it is not a trustworthy source. Furthermore, the Bible’s creation story is unproven and thus cannot be used as proof.
Re: “He put natural laws in place to sustain and continue the process which may account for change WITHIN a species.”
Does this mean you don’t believe that one species can evolve into another?
June 25th, 2008 at 2:30 pm
Ron:
Re: “It seems to say you are choosing to believe one thing over another. Because it makes the most sense _to you_.”
I never said that I “choose” to believe anything. I have said the opposite. I said I believe X, Y, and Z because they make the most sense to me. And I said, “If a more solid, sensible idea arises, then my belief will automatically change accordingly.” AUTOMATICALLY. My beliefs go wherever the evidence leads. This is the opposite of “choosing” a belief.
Re: “Are you open to the idea that their might be a God who will judge you according to your sins on the day of Judgment?
I am absolutely open to that idea. As I’ve said several times now, my beliefs simply follow the evidence. And as I said in post #168, “I just want to learn what happened. If anyone can prove that one or more gods created the universe, I will happily follow the evidence.” I would have no choice. If the evidence were to demonstrate that a god exists, then a god exists. It’s not up to me, and it doesn’t matter what I wish were the case. Likewise, although I would dearly love to spend eternity with my family and friends, the evidence doesn’t support that idea, so I don’t believe it’s going to happen. Reality doesn’t care what I want.
Re: “I do believe in the micro “evolution” as somewhat stated in the diagrams. What I don’t believe and they don’t show is upward evolution where we see the addition of never before seen generation.”
I addressed this in post #22, to which you never replied. Specifically: “The kinds of changes you show DO occur. It just takes a long time, so normally you don’t see it in one generation (”micro-evolution”). As explained at the evolution web site, new things pop up as a result of mutations. Sometimes a mutation is visible immediately when it occurs (i.e., within a single generation) and sometimes it’s not. As mutations accumulate, a gene could produce a protein more and more different from the original. If there are blue plants for the beetle to blend in with, then natural selection could favor those mutations that cause the green pigment to become bluer, until a blue beetle finally appeared.”
This didn’t help? What kind of evidence would you need to see for “upward evolution”?
Re: ” I am closed on the topic of Darwinian Evolution. I have examined the a great deal of evidence and found it lacking.”
Given that your posting #21 demonstrated a lack of understanding about basic evolutionary principles, it seems premature for you to be “closed” on Darwinian evolution.
Re: “[Darwinian evolution] also offers no hope to the bigger questions of why we are here and what purpose we have in this life.”
Neither does physics, math, or chemistry, but surely you believe them. Neither they nor Darwinian evolution claim to address our purpose in life. That issue should have no bearing whatsoever on their believability.
June 25th, 2008 at 3:30 pm
PS: Ron, I would be interested in where you stand on the question of Jesus killing babies in Jericho.
June 26th, 2008 at 8:46 am
Geoffrey,
If you read the Bible through from Genesis to Revelation, you may see for yourself why Jesus Christ was sent, what He taught, and how He lived. He came healing some and raising some from the dead, He gave Himself that we might not have to die. It seems to me that you are doing your best to find some way to accuse the One person who is sinless of being guilty. To accuse a Holy God who came to save life is to become guilty of calling evil good and good evil. Read Isaiah 5:20. God alone has the right to bring judgment and for whatever reason judgment was brought on the people of Jericho. If we get into theology and study the deeper things here, we could draw a parallel and compare Joshua to Jesus. We know that Joshua offered sanctuary to Rahab and her family. Yet those in Jericho who continued to defy the Lord received judgment. Jesus came as our Saviour, but He will come again as a judge. This does not change the fact that Jesus came bringing grace and truth and offering forgiveness and life to a lost and dying world. Satan wants to distract us from that message.
Jesus told us why He came into this lost world. Luke 4:18-19 The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; He hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and the recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, to preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
When He comes again, and He will, He will have the additional job of judgment.
…for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God, so then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. Romans 14:10-12
Perhaps, rather than questioning for the purpose of arguing, you should read to become enlightened. The story that concerns you is included in the Bible. It could just as easily have been omitted. It wasn’t. There is a reason or purpose that the Lord has for its inclusion. Instead of accusing the Holy One of God, seek to learn from Him.
June 26th, 2008 at 9:29 am
Re: Jericho.
I’ve refrained from commenting because it’s like trying to explain a Hawaiian sunset to a blind man. But I’ll give you a few quick thoughts. First, we don’t know the eternal fate of the children. But we do know the people of Jericho had time to repent. They did not. Therefore, they brought destruction to themselves, their land and their children. I’m surprised you don’t see the parallels. The entire discussion brings to mind these words from Jesus:
Luke 13:1-5
1 There were some present at that very time who told him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
2 And he answered them, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered in this way?
3 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem?
5 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.”
Geoffrey, are you any better than the people of Jericho? Today you stand in judgment of God. God is just. Yet you accuse Him of not conforming to your idea of what He should be. Do you not see the arrogance? To be in judgment of something you must be greater or have authority over that which you judge.
Again and again, you cry for proof of scriptures you don’t understand. Yet you are unwilling to study the overwhelming amount of manuscript, archaeological, prophetic and statistical evidence to remove reasonable doubt. And you command every preacher that believes scripture provide you that evidence before preaching from the word.
Geoffrey, we can’t make it any clearer. You are blind and need healing. Unless you humble yourself (completely), receive God’s gift of faith and respond with repenting of the sins you know of, you too will receive God’s perfect judgment and wrath. Then, maybe, you’ll get the answers you seek according to God’s grace.
I am praying for your salvation.
June 26th, 2008 at 10:40 am
Hi Ron, Hi Geoffrey, Hi Jann,
Glad to see everyone back and well.
Jann, i am actually going to address you first.
Respectfully, i don’t entirely disagree with what you said in disagreement to me referring to sources other than the bible. I agree entirely that the bible has allll the answers, and alone it is sufficient. However, i’ll argue that God also gave us teachers. Past and present. Tom Nelson happened to be the teacher who brought scripture to a clear understanding for me, in order that i came to understand i needed to repent and give my life to Christ.
The fact that Geoffrey says he knows the bible fairly well, indicates he is still lacking in understanding, and therefore, i am leading him (or whomever comes in here) to sources that may very well explain things. For example, GK is so bent out of shape about Joshua killing children. Well, that prompted me to do more research and i found this link which has a theory/explanation to that:
http://www.raptureready.com/soap/g19.html
And another which is outstanding, Tommy explains the bible’s inconsistencies (which he explains there really aren’t, but you have to hear it), which i may not have picked up on, only by reading the bible:
http://www.metrobible.org/mp3/18BiblicalInerrancy.mp3
So here we have an explanation to Joshua’s order, and an explanation to the bible and what appears to be inconsistencies which really are not. The bible is a deep deep book, and sometimes teachers are better to learn from, than going at it alone. I could read a geometry book and not learn a thing, but if i have a teacher who better knows it, they can explain it to me as a supplement to my reading the geometry book.
Geoffrey, if you truly have issues with those 2 points, i encourage you to go the links, and i’ll address more in a bit.
June 26th, 2008 at 11:16 am
i want to give a disclaimer. upon researching more about joshua, i was steered to a link about the “Nephilim.” upon searching more about them, is what brought me to the above website: raptureready.com. i want to add, i know nothing of the authors in there, and therefore am not endorsing them or the website, or not. it was a bit more charismatic than i am used to, but had interesting articles nonetheless. i typically want to refer to sources i am familiar with. i just thought that particular article was very interesting.
June 26th, 2008 at 11:40 am
okay geoffrey, here are more of my thoughts…
re #169: you continue to miss it. God HAS lifted His almighty finger and revealed Himself to creation. i don’t need Him to do it again for me, because i am not arrogant nor the center of the universe. He did His work, which was more than enough for me. sadly, it isn’t enough for you and you are like the clay raising your fist at the potter.
this proof thing we keep going rounds about, i’ve said it so much.. the proof for me is in my heart. i am not under mind-control or self-delusion or whatever else you suggested. you can’t speak for me or ron or jann. but i guess you don’t have to take our word for it. if it doesn’t fit your reasoning we are self delusional. now i see where this is going. please again refer to the (way above post) of heaps of verses regarding the fool.
re #171: you state yourself as fact, yet no proof exists to back you up. proof exists all around on the contrary. that statement holds nothing.
re the top of #172: i never suggested the big bang theory was true.
re #173: listen to tommy address that very well in post #179.
re #181: ANYONE can call themselves a Christian. that does not mean that they are. sadly, it’s the way it is, and Jesus refers to the church falling into a world-wide state of apostasy before He returns again. i believe we are well on our way to that. God’s word is perfect, but man is not. therefore, man can manipulate and twist scripture, and even form their own religions based upon false beliefs and teachings. satan works everywhere.
re #169: i recall finding love in nature in my #111 post. did you miss that? again tho, i credit God the creator and therefore praise Him for the beauty around us, you credit… nature. thank you nature for making yourself. makes no sense!
back to the joshua killing babies part. the above article referring to the fallen angels was quite interesting. if indeed, he was ordered by God to wipe out “bad seeds” is God’s business. but you are throwing out the baby with the bath water (no pun there), by dismissing the bible as a whole because you have a problem with that one incident. again, the heaps of verses way above. oh, i caught what you did… you brought up a point above by stating “POST NATAL” killings. did you ever address jann who called you out on your major issue with joshua killing babies, in the parallel, tragic murdering of the unborn babies rampant in today’s time?
also in #169, the last 4 sentences before your closing 2 sentences are completely false.
lastly for this post, i must point out you are a major contradiction. you don’t believe in God because you see no evidence of Him. then you go on your rants about how awesome nature is, and life here on earth. helllllo…. open your eyes. is the heaps of joy you have not evidence of your Creator who did all this cos He loves you?
June 26th, 2008 at 1:36 pm
Note to all: If you post a comment (especially one real long or with links) your post may be held for moderation or worse go to spam. Here’s how you can tell. If you post and it says awaiting moderation – it’s being held for my approval (anything w/ a link gets stuck at that point). If your post seems to just vanish. Then it hit spam. Please just post a commet that says something like, “my post just went to spam”. I can recover 99.9% of them if I find out right away.
June 26th, 2008 at 2:09 pm
yes, mine just vanished. thanks for explaining we can let you know we’re spam. =)
June 27th, 2008 at 9:20 am
re #171
the apostle Paul had an experience outside of his earthly existence, and i have heard of other accounts of folks who have clinically died and also had “out of body experiences”… as if they were given a taste of that awaits them after they leave their mortal bodies. some have been pleasant (heading towards the beautiful “white light”), others have been terrified and were revived only to commit their lives the Lord Jesus. i’ve seen it on 20/20. =)
so are they all lying? (those who were clinically dead whose existance continued on) or is it possible God allowed these experiences as a way to offer more witness accounts of the “afterlife”? i believe so. it’s fascinating!
Paul wrote: “I was caught up to the third heaven fourteen years ago. Whether I was in my body or out of my body, I don’t know – only God knows. Yes, only God knows whether I was in my body or outside my body. But I do know that I was caught up to paradise and heard things so astounding that they cannot be expressed in words, things no human is allowed to tell.” 2 Corinthians 12:2-4
June 27th, 2008 at 12:10 pm
Ron,
Re: “I do believe in the micro “evolution” as somewhat stated in the diagrams. What I don’t believe and they don’t show is upward evolution where we see the addition of never before seen generation.”
What kind of evidence would you need to see for “upward evolution”?
June 27th, 2008 at 1:55 pm
At this point, Geoffrey, I’m only interested in discussing your repentance. We can hash out evolution and creation again after that, if you like.
June 27th, 2008 at 8:45 pm
OK, I’ve repented. Now, what kind of evidence would you need to see for “upward evolution”?
June 27th, 2008 at 9:59 pm
show it geoffrey. if you have it, please show it…
June 28th, 2008 at 12:40 pm
Hallelujah?
June 28th, 2008 at 4:03 pm
hi geoffrey… you are funny, really, but i want you to offer up your evidence, your proof positive of upward evolution. if you can produce that, then there is no need for this debate to go on any further. if you cannot, i will continue to pray, as i have been doing, that you will soon soften and finally look up to your Creator with a heart so full of sorrow, only He can mend.
i, personally, will eagerly await your “proof” that goes against everything taught in scripture….
oh, and sometimes the best time to really see up, is when you are on your knees.
June 29th, 2008 at 6:22 am
I rather see proof of his repentance.
June 30th, 2008 at 8:36 am
ron, what a great link. i listened to ray’s “true and false conversion” just the other day, but this link has an outline you can print out AND the sermon in PDF format. super cool! (i want to sign up for W.O.T.M.’s evangelism course… know anything about it?)
geoffrey, all that is left to say is, when you cannot come up with the evidence we ask for, i truly hope you will finally evaluate WHY you cannot, why science cannot prove the big bang period, and why it is soooo much easier to find rest in the belief that we have a Creator, He loves you and i personally, and you can have a relationship that lasts with Him forever. trust in Him and repent, and you are forever His. it’s that simple!
blessings to you all. ~colleen
June 30th, 2008 at 11:47 am
I’ve taken the first course and led a class at our church. It’s very good. The concept of teaching the law (or even mentioning Hell) makes some very uneasy. Get a class to listen to Hell’s best kept secret and that will help you gage the need for the whole class. Of course, I love it and think everyone needs it.
June 30th, 2008 at 4:16 pm
i agree–i think everyone needs it. thanks for the feedback. i love the whole WOTM ministry, and what they are doing. good for them! it’s about time someone does it.
July 14th, 2008 at 2:08 pm
geoffrey,
i just listened to this and you came to my mind quite a bit. i’ll post the link for you, and if you have time, give it a go.
http://www.dbcmedia.org/xcart/product.php?productid=3310&cat=0&page=1
i hope you are well.
August 15th, 2008 at 12:59 pm
Colleen,
OK, you got me. I never repented.
Sorry I’ve taken so long to reply. Much has been going on at my end that kept getting in the way.
I find it interesting that you and Ron won’t offer any opinion on whether Jesus would have agreed with the baby-killing in Jericho, and would have even done it himself. I think you can sense the inherent contradiction in your faith that this issue raises, and you just can’t bring yourselves to approach it.
I went to the website you mentioned in post #195 and realized quickly that it’s just the same old self-centered, I-am-God’s-mouthpiece-and-therefore-obey-me stream of arrogance that constitutes Tom Nelson. He blames all of life’s woes on the lack of religion, or, more precisely, lack of HIS religion. And although he bases his beliefs on the Bible, he doesn’t consider for a moment the Bible’s self-contradiction and, therefore, its self-invalidation. Like so many self-proclaimed “holy men,” he’s getting adulation from his flock, and he enjoys it so much that he won’t discuss all the ways in which his source, the Bible, is wrong. No need to consider his words any further.
Regarding your request for proof of “upward evolution,” it’s all in the evolution web site that I referred you to previously. “Upward evolution” is nothing more than the accumulation of many “micro-evolutionary” changes. It’s all the same thing. Name one protein that did not come from a similar ancestor. If you really want to learn what evolution is, go back to the web site and stick with it for more than 5 minutes. It’s a beautiful explanation, with graphics and easy language. If you can’t learn evolution there, then you’ll probably never learn it, in which case you can never criticize it.
August 15th, 2008 at 1:56 pm
GK: There is no contradiction. I previously answered your post here (post 178).
August 15th, 2008 at 2:36 pm
Hi Ron,
You said the people of Jericho “had ample time to repent” before all the baby-killing. What sins do babies have to repent of, and how should they go about it?
August 15th, 2008 at 2:39 pm
Ron,
Furthermore, you did not answer the question. You did not say “Yes” or “No” as to whether Jesus would approve of and commit the baby-killing of Jericho.
August 16th, 2008 at 9:27 pm
Romans9
20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, ‘Why did You make me like this?”‘ 21 Does not the Potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Matthew 13
3 Then He told them many things in parables, saying: “A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9 He who has ears, let him hear.”
10 The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do You speak to the people in parables?”
11 He replied, “The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables:
“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand. 14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
” ‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15 For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Luke 11
9 “So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
10 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Phillipians 2
12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Proverbs 1
5 let the wise listen and add to their learning,
and let the discerning get guidance-
6 for understanding proverbs and parables,
the sayings and riddles of the wise.
7 The *fear* of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge,
but fools despise wisdom and discipline.
August 16th, 2008 at 10:17 pm
Frog Prince: OK, just quote the whole Bible while you’re at it. But it would be better if you would kinda summarize whatever your point is in your own words.
August 17th, 2008 at 10:19 am
(on the death of children)
2 Samuel 12:21-23
21 His servants asked him, “Why are you acting this way? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept, but now that the child is dead, you get up and eat!”
22 He answered, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, ‘Who knows? The LORD may be gracious to me and let the child live.’ 23 But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? ***I will go to him***, but he will not return to me.”
(on the big bang)
Isaiah 34
4 All the stars of the heavens will be dissolved
and the sky rolled up like a scroll;
all the starry host will fall
like withered leaves from the vine,
like shriveled figs from the fig tree.
(The parable of the life purposes)
Matthew 25
14 “Again, it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted his property to them. 15 To one he gave five talents[a] of money, to another two talents, and to another one talent, each according to his ability. Then he went on his journey. 16 The man who had received the five talents went at once and put his money to work and gained five more. 17 So also, the one with the two talents gained two more. 18 But the man who had received the one talent went off, dug a hole in the ground and hid his master’s money.
19 “After a long time the master of those servants returned and settled accounts with them. 20 The man who had received the five talents brought the other five. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘you entrusted me with five talents. See, I have gained five more.’ 21 “His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’
22 “The man with the two talents also came. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘you entrusted me with two talents; see, I have gained two more.’ 23 “His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’
24 “Then the man who had received the one talent came. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘***I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed***. 25 So I was afraid and went out and hid your talent in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.’ 26 “His master replied, ‘You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? 27 Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.
28 ” ‘Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents. 29 For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 30 And throw that worthless servant outside, ***into the darkness***, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
(summary)
Matthew 16:25
25 For whoever wants to save his life/soul will lose it, but whoever loses his life/soul for Me will find it.
(the patience of God)
Luke 13
6 Then He told this parable: “A man had a fig tree, planted in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it, but did not find any. 7 So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, ‘For three years now I’ve been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven’t found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?’
8 ” ‘Sir,’ the man replied, ‘leave it alone for one more year, and I’ll dig around it and fertilize it. 9 If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.’ ”
(cosmic justice… what is “fair”?)
1 Peter 4
6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.
Revelation 6
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”
Matthew 7
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. …
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Romans 10
17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. 18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:
“Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.”
August 17th, 2008 at 10:44 am
(on the conscience of men)
1 Kings 19
11 And He said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the LORD. And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake:
12 And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.
Isaiah 30:21
21 Whether you turn to the right or to the left, your ears will hear a voice behind you, saying, “This is the way; walk in it.”
Romans 2
14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 ***since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts***, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
(the lamb… *and* the Lion: this is no contradiction)
Luke 17
20 Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, 21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is within you.”
22 Then He said to His disciples, “The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. 23 Men will tell you, ‘There He is!’ or ‘Here He is!’ Do not go running off after them. 24 For the Son of Man in His day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. 25 But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.
August 18th, 2008 at 10:32 am
@ GK: Yes. Furthermore, not only did Christ approve. As part of the Trinity, you can even say He commanded it.
And TheFrogPrince (TFP) is correct in siting scripture to you, because your complaint is not with us, rather with God and His word. There’s nothing more I can say that would not echo post #178. Read TFP’s posts carefully and humbly, God’s word (the gospel) is the power unto salvation.
August 18th, 2008 at 2:06 pm
i didn’t think you were coming back geoffrey! glad to ‘see’ you again. i’ll read all the above and perhaps have some input. hope all is well with you. ~colleen
August 18th, 2008 at 2:44 pm
Right off the bat I noticed this continues to go in circles. I just read this article i’ll post, which in my mind, applies here without a doubt! Sorry Geoffrey, but all in all you made your choice. I hope you will change your mind someday before it’s too late for you. Forever is a long time to have to live with the fact that you were wrong, and may suffer that consequence for all of time. Bottom line is, we are ALL worthy of Hell. We have all sinned. We have all fallen short of perfection which is required to inherit God’s kingdom. By His loving grace, He sent Christ to pay the price. Belief in that and repentance is what brings you to pass from judgement into life with Him forever. Period. It’s a beautiful, loving plan, a beautiful, loving gift. Why you choose not to accept it is beyond me. Here’s what applies…
Author Brent Rider says, “It is impossible without the Holy Spirit’s intervention for man to understand scripture. It is impossible to argue using just human logic and prove to someone that a point in scripture is true. The bible is the “sword of the Spirit” (Ephesians 6:17), not sword of man, so it is the Spirit that uses it to separate what is of the soul (man’s corrupt intellect) and what is of the Spirit (God’s truth in scriptures). (Hebrews 4:12).
He also says,
Scripture itself tells us how it came to be… ALL of it is “breathed out by God” (2 Timothy 3:16) and “came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost” (2 Peter 1:21). Debate is not the method by which the Word of God is to be spread. The bible says “preach the Word” (2 Timothy 4:2-4), not “debate the Word” or argue the Word. It is the Lord’s work through the Holy Spirit, not ours, to convince and convict men of the truth. We preach it and let it be. We are to avoid “arguments”, “doubtful disputations” and words “to no profit” (Romans 14:1 and 2 Timothy 2:14). If someone has questions or wants honest discussion, answer them (1 Peter 3:15). If any will not receive the Word, though, they are being “willingly ignorant” (2 Peter 3:5 – Evolutionists!), and there is not a thing you can do to convince someone who is not seeking the truth but only to discredit what we preach and put forward their own agenda or follow their own blind leaders, they both end up in the ditch. (Matthew 15:12-14). Christ says in these verse to “let them alone.” We are also told if any man is (willingly or obstinately) ignorant, having been told the truth, let him be ignorant. (1 Corinthians 14:38).
There is not time to waste trying to convince those who refuse to listen. “The night is far spent.” (Romans 13:12) and there is not much time left to reach those who DO have questions and who ARE seeking truth. One of Satan’s strategies has to be to tie up true believers with good knowledge and true motives debating in circles with whose who won’t listen instead of concentrating on finding those that will, and seeing them pass from death to life by our Lord’s grace. We are told to “redeem the time” in relation to preaching the “mystery of Christ” (Colossians 4:3-6). The 70 were told when sent out to preach the kingdom, that if they were not received in a city to say “even the very dust of your city which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you…” and move on! (Luke 10:1-12).
You cannot win if you debate a non-Christian apologist on his terms. Satan has had over 6,000 years to polish up his lies to make them attractive to the human mind and soul. They “feel” right to the unsaved (Proverbs 14:12). Some of these lies are exposed as doctrines of demons (1 Timothy 4:1-4). If you read these verses you will see that scripture is brutally honest about who teaches them so that those who will listen can be warned who the liars are and avoid them! But when you argue with someone who will not listen and does not want to learn, all you do is go round and round with circular logic and lies.
YEP–HE SUMMED IT UP WELL! ~colleen
August 18th, 2008 at 9:45 pm
Hi Colleen,
To sum up his (and your) philosophy then, if you can’t win with logic, paint your adversary as a demon. That’s the same lack of reasoning used by Muslim extremists to justify their acts of violence against those who don’t believe as they do. If every religious zealot had to prove the validity of their beliefs, we would have a much more peaceful and sensible world. Those who demonize logic cannot be reasoned with. I don’t know about you, Colleen, but I prefer the company of those who can reason and can be reasoned with, over those who are cock-sure of their beliefs without knowing why, and without caring to know why.
August 19th, 2008 at 8:42 am
Colleen,
You are right. The night is far spent and we have tried. I did not mean to criticize you earlier about the websites. I just noticed that Geoffrey was only picking out something from each with which to argue.
I am in the midst of the Beth Moore bible study, “Jesus, The One and Only”. Have you taken that study? It is really great and truly brings home to me the amount of suffering Christ endured as He resolutely ‘set his face for Jerusalem’ and continued all the way to Golgotha and Calvery just so we could be redeemed.
Perhaps, if we continue to pray, Geoffrey will realize how much Christ loves him.
May God bless you.
Jan
August 19th, 2008 at 9:42 am
Geoffrey,
To sum up your philosophy then, if you can’t win with logic, paint your adversary as a Muslim extremist.
Colleen, went around and around with you. But you don’t want to reason. You want to argue. We have gone out of our way to try and answer your questions and the answers are never good enough. Again, sorry to repeat myself, but your argument is not with us or our lack of logic, but with God Almighty. TFP gave you some excellent answers from scripture. I encourage you to pick up a Bible and do some research of your own and not to look us for answers. Frankly we are not capable of convincing you. Only God’s Holy Spirit can remove the scales from your eyes. And He may be willing to do that, if you humble yourself and turn from your sin. He will give you the faith you need.
August 19th, 2008 at 10:20 am
hi jann! my mom LOVES beth moore and has introduced me to a little of her teachings. she is a doll. i’ll look into the one you recommend. i was at a Christian bookstore the other day and saw her stuff. she took up a whole isle! i was wowed!
no biggie on the “criticism” regarding the links to my preacher. (i didn’t take it as such). tommy is amazing, he’s an intellect, sound in his knowledge, practices “expository preaching,” believes in pre-destination, and only ONCE have i encountered what i personally believe to be error… when he expressed he doesn’t think dogs go to heaven. but that’s okay, i can argue him on that one. =) he used to lead the “song of solomon” conferences around the states. he got so busy and had to give some things up. you may have heard of him, has books out… from denton bible church in texas? he’s just the best teacher i know to recommend to anyone. i can sit at my desk and work while listening to him teach all day long. when GK knocked him in such an insulting way, i realized he is wasting my time, and all Christians time. he is not here to learn, only argue. it’s exhausting… and better to just pray for him that the Holy Spirit will soften his heart.
i do want to say to you geoffrey, that to compare Christian’s reasoning to muslim extremists is so wrong. the difference between us and them, is (as you worded it) their justification to violence. Christians are taught to love our enemies and submit to persecution. big difference.
and yes, we ARE absolutely sure of WHY we believe what we do, against what you stated. we have been chosen by Christ and have the Spirit dwelling in us. something you will not know, understand or believe in, until you humble yourself and repent to your Creator. only then will He reveal Himself to your heart. this i believe. you will stay in my prayers.
jann and ron, it’s been a pleasure being a part of this lengthy conversation with you guys. not to say i’m not coming back to check in here, but just want to acknowledge it’s been something i’ve gained knowledge from, from your biblical perspectives, and in my own research to counter GK’s statements. i’ve really enjoyed it overall. even conversing with you geoffrey!
August 21st, 2008 at 9:08 am
Like all things, there’s a time to end the conversation. Thanks to all who participated. We have gone around and around here. Points have been clarified and I think all have had their chance to be heard. You can email me if you disagree. Ron Shank @ g mail [dot] com. Thanks to all who contributed.