no biggie on the “criticism” regarding the links to my preacher. (i didn’t take it as such). tommy is amazing, he’s an intellect, sound in his knowledge, practices “expository preaching,” believes in pre-destination, and only ONCE have i encountered what i personally believe to be error… when he expressed he doesn’t think dogs go to heaven. but that’s okay, i can argue him on that one. =) he used to lead the “song of solomon” conferences around the states. he got so busy and had to give some things up. you may have heard of him, has books out… from denton bible church in texas? he’s just the best teacher i know to recommend to anyone. i can sit at my desk and work while listening to him teach all day long. when GK knocked him in such an insulting way, i realized he is wasting my time, and all Christians time. he is not here to learn, only argue. it’s exhausting… and better to just pray for him that the Holy Spirit will soften his heart.

i do want to say to you geoffrey, that to compare Christian’s reasoning to muslim extremists is so wrong. the difference between us and them, is (as you worded it) their justification to violence. Christians are taught to love our enemies and submit to persecution. big difference.

and yes, we ARE absolutely sure of WHY we believe what we do, against what you stated. we have been chosen by Christ and have the Spirit dwelling in us. something you will not know, understand or believe in, until you humble yourself and repent to your Creator. only then will He reveal Himself to your heart. this i believe. you will stay in my prayers.

jann and ron, it’s been a pleasure being a part of this lengthy conversation with you guys. not to say i’m not coming back to check in here, but just want to acknowledge it’s been something i’ve gained knowledge from, from your biblical perspectives, and in my own research to counter GK’s statements. i’ve really enjoyed it overall. even conversing with you geoffrey!

To sum up your philosophy then, if you can’t win with logic, paint your adversary as a Muslim extremist.

Colleen, went around and around with you. But you don’t want to reason. You want to argue. We have gone out of our way to try and answer your questions and the answers are never good enough. Again, sorry to repeat myself, but your argument is not with us or our lack of logic, but with God Almighty. TFP gave you some excellent answers from scripture. I encourage you to pick up a Bible and do some research of your own and not to look us for answers. Frankly we are not capable of convincing you. Only God’s Holy Spirit can remove the scales from your eyes. And He may be willing to do that, if you humble yourself and turn from your sin. He will give you the faith you need.

You are right. The night is far spent and we have tried. I did not mean to criticize you earlier about the websites. I just noticed that Geoffrey was only picking out something from each with which to argue.

I am in the midst of the Beth Moore bible study, “Jesus, The One and Only”. Have you taken that study? It is really great and truly brings home to me the amount of suffering Christ endured as He resolutely ‘set his face for Jerusalem’ and continued all the way to Golgotha and Calvery just so we could be redeemed.

Perhaps, if we continue to pray, Geoffrey will realize how much Christ loves him.

May God bless you.
Jan

To sum up his (and your) philosophy then, if you can’t win with logic, paint your adversary as a demon. That’s the same lack of reasoning used by Muslim extremists to justify their acts of violence against those who don’t believe as they do. If every religious zealot had to prove the validity of their beliefs, we would have a much more peaceful and sensible world. Those who demonize logic cannot be reasoned with. I don’t know about you, Colleen, but I prefer the company of those who can reason and can be reasoned with, over those who are cock-sure of their beliefs without knowing why, and without caring to know why.

Author Brent Rider says, “It is impossible without the Holy Spirit’s intervention for man to understand scripture. It is impossible to argue using just human logic and prove to someone that a point in scripture is true. The bible is the “sword of the Spirit” (Ephesians 6:17), not sword of man, so it is the Spirit that uses it to separate what is of the soul (man’s corrupt intellect) and what is of the Spirit (God’s truth in scriptures). (Hebrews 4:12).

He also says,

Scripture itself tells us how it came to be… ALL of it is “breathed out by God” (2 Timothy 3:16) and “came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost” (2 Peter 1:21). Debate is not the method by which the Word of God is to be spread. The bible says “preach the Word” (2 Timothy 4:2-4), not “debate the Word” or argue the Word. It is the Lord’s work through the Holy Spirit, not ours, to convince and convict men of the truth. We preach it and let it be. We are to avoid “arguments”, “doubtful disputations” and words “to no profit” (Romans 14:1 and 2 Timothy 2:14). If someone has questions or wants honest discussion, answer them (1 Peter 3:15). If any will not receive the Word, though, they are being “willingly ignorant” (2 Peter 3:5 – Evolutionists!), and there is not a thing you can do to convince someone who is not seeking the truth but only to discredit what we preach and put forward their own agenda or follow their own blind leaders, they both end up in the ditch. (Matthew 15:12-14). Christ says in these verse to “let them alone.” We are also told if any man is (willingly or obstinately) ignorant, having been told the truth, let him be ignorant. (1 Corinthians 14:38).

There is not time to waste trying to convince those who refuse to listen. “The night is far spent.” (Romans 13:12) and there is not much time left to reach those who DO have questions and who ARE seeking truth. One of Satan’s strategies has to be to tie up true believers with good knowledge and true motives debating in circles with whose who won’t listen instead of concentrating on finding those that will, and seeing them pass from death to life by our Lord’s grace. We are told to “redeem the time” in relation to preaching the “mystery of Christ” (Colossians 4:3-6). The 70 were told when sent out to preach the kingdom, that if they were not received in a city to say “even the very dust of your city which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you…” and move on! (Luke 10:1-12).

You cannot win if you debate a non-Christian apologist on his terms. Satan has had over 6,000 years to polish up his lies to make them attractive to the human mind and soul. They “feel” right to the unsaved (Proverbs 14:12). Some of these lies are exposed as doctrines of demons (1 Timothy 4:1-4). If you read these verses you will see that scripture is brutally honest about who teaches them so that those who will listen can be warned who the liars are and avoid them! But when you argue with someone who will not listen and does not want to learn, all you do is go round and round with circular logic and lies.

YEP–HE SUMMED IT UP WELL! ~colleen

And TheFrogPrince (TFP) is correct in siting scripture to you, because your complaint is not with us, rather with God and His word. There’s nothing more I can say that would not echo post #178. Read TFP’s posts carefully and humbly, God’s word (the gospel) is the power unto salvation.

1 Kings 19
11 And He said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the LORD. And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake:
12 And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.

Isaiah 30:21
21 Whether you turn to the right or to the left, your ears will hear a voice behind you, saying, “This is the way; walk in it.”

Romans 2
14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 ***since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts***, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

(the lamb… *and* the Lion: this is no contradiction)

Luke 17
20 Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, 21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is within you.”
22 Then He said to His disciples, “The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. 23 Men will tell you, ‘There He is!’ or ‘Here He is!’ Do not go running off after them. 24 For the Son of Man in His day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. 25 But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.

2 Samuel 12:21-23
21 His servants asked him, “Why are you acting this way? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept, but now that the child is dead, you get up and eat!”

22 He answered, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, ‘Who knows? The LORD may be gracious to me and let the child live.’ 23 But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? ***I will go to him***, but he will not return to me.”

(on the big bang)

Isaiah 34
4 All the stars of the heavens will be dissolved
and the sky rolled up like a scroll;
all the starry host will fall
like withered leaves from the vine,
like shriveled figs from the fig tree.

(The parable of the life purposes)

Matthew 25
14 “Again, it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted his property to them. 15 To one he gave five talents[a] of money, to another two talents, and to another one talent, each according to his ability. Then he went on his journey. 16 The man who had received the five talents went at once and put his money to work and gained five more. 17 So also, the one with the two talents gained two more. 18 But the man who had received the one talent went off, dug a hole in the ground and hid his master’s money.

19 “After a long time the master of those servants returned and settled accounts with them. 20 The man who had received the five talents brought the other five. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘you entrusted me with five talents. See, I have gained five more.’ 21 “His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’

22 “The man with the two talents also came. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘you entrusted me with two talents; see, I have gained two more.’ 23 “His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’

24 “Then the man who had received the one talent came. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘***I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed***. 25 So I was afraid and went out and hid your talent in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.’ 26 “His master replied, ‘You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? 27 Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.

28 ” ‘Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents. 29 For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 30 And throw that worthless servant outside, ***into the darkness***, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

(summary)
Matthew 16:25
25 For whoever wants to save his life/soul will lose it, but whoever loses his life/soul for Me will find it.

(the patience of God)
Luke 13
6 Then He told this parable: “A man had a fig tree, planted in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it, but did not find any. 7 So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, ‘For three years now I’ve been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven’t found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?’
8 ” ‘Sir,’ the man replied, ‘leave it alone for one more year, and I’ll dig around it and fertilize it. 9 If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.’ ”

(cosmic justice… what is “fair”?)

1 Peter 4
6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

Revelation 6
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”

Matthew 7
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. …
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Romans 10
17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. 18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:
“Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.”