As happens from time to time, comments take on a life (or post) of their own.
Here is a post and my replies from Angry Dissenter:
I always like talking theology.
The short answer is yes, I believe that if there’s a heaven and I get hit by a bus today, that I get in.
What do you base this on?
However, your question and my answer are based on philosophical assumptions and conclusions which, I think, are more important than either the question or the answer.
1) First, I can’t believe in hell. It’s not a concept that is logically compatible with my conception of God, or even the popular Christian concept of God. If you believe that God is infinite (or at least larger than all things in existence), hell becomes extremely problematic.
It wasn’t problematic for the author’s of Scripture or Christ, Himself:
“Hell” in Scripture:
2) For example, let’s take Pascal’s Wager at its face, and say that if I incur X units of pleasure here on earth, God will be displeased with me and setence me to infinite units of pain in the afterlife. Exactly what X units of pleasure/sin are required is an unknown, since this is all ostensibly within God’s judgment. But under the wager and modern Christian tenets, there is an “X” point beyond which you have sinned and must be condemned to hell. (Here we get into original sin and whether God would ever condemn a child to hell, but for the sake of convenience, let’s boil this down to their logical equivalent of X sin units = hell.)
James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
3) The problem here is that we’ve now established for God an arbitrary standard. We have what is essentially an infinite and omnipotent being which is constrained by an outside principle (X). Thus, under the theory we’re working underm iut is conceivable that God may not wish to condemn somebody to hell, but must anyway because those are the rules.
Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
4) Of course you’re free to reject #3 and say that God has the final say on who gets into heaven, and is not bound by actual sinning. But if you are still saying that God sends other people to hell who have sinned less, you have God playing favorites. And an infinite God (who by definition must love inifinitely and equally) does not seem to be logically capable of such an action.
God is not playing favorites. God has set a standard that is in line with His perfection and His holiness, His righteousness. You’re looking at righteousness man-to-man or horizontally. God looks at man’s righteousness vertically or man-to-Almighty.
5) Then, you may wish to reject the Pascal’s Wager analysis entirely, and say that the amount of sin does not matter- it is only whether one has “accepted” God or Jesus Christ. But this is actually an illusory argument, as it is still based on the behavior of humans while they are still alive. (Rather than being sin units, X is simply replaced with “has/has not accepted God/Jesus Christ.”) The same logical problems involving omnipotence and arbitrary standards apply.
I think I’ve stated clearly that the amount of sin does not matter. Even a small amount is enough to render us unrighteous before a Holy and all-powerful God.
Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
6) All of the above ignores a simpler philosophical argument against hell. I know personally that there are a handful of people in the world that I could forgive anything. If God is greater than me, then God must also be capable of forgiving those same people. Additionally, God must be capable of forgiving anyone else that any other person in the universe is capable of forgiving. And since God’s love is infinite, God must further be capable of forgiving *anyone* for *anything.* And so hell doesn’t really make sense here, either. (Admittedly, this particular argument is not entirely mine. I’d recommend reading If Grace Is True, which is an entire book about this very subject, written by two Quaker ministers.)
Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
God’s love is infinite. But so is His justice (which is what you would expect from a loving God). For example: A man rapes, tortures and kills your mother. He sadly then alludes the law and lives to a ripe old age where he die a natural death. Where is the justice? From what I’ve read so far, there is no justice for your mother, you or for your family. In fact, just the opposite happens. He also gets to enter the same heaven. Before you think this is a hypothetical because your mother is alive, look at the 2001 US Crime Index. Where only 46.2 percent of violent crimes are cleared and 16.2 percent of property crimes cleared (excluding arson). In other words, only about half of people murdered ever see justice this side of heaven.
7) Even if the above arguments were somehow false, it would be morally advantageous not to convince other people that hell exists, because if they do not believe hell exists, their altruism will will purely altruistic, and not motivated by fear of being damned.
As I stated earlier, and as Scripture puts so well, “fear is the beginning of wisdom”. The realization that you are in violation of God’s perfect standard; that no one is perfect and that you too will have to answer to God Almighty for what you knew to be wrong. Never mind the things you didn’t know — seriously, think about the things you knew were against your God-given conscience but you did them anyway. There is a day coming when you will have to answer for that. Your lies, your theft, your adultry. Will you be innocent or guilty? The thought should wake you up. When it does you like most may ask, what must I do to be save?
As a final thought, on fear as a motivation to do good: I’m reminded on the ancient Chinese proverb which states, “When the wrong man does the right thing, it usually turns out wrong,” as well as C.S. Lewis’ statement in Mere Christianity that a self-righteous, church going prig may be far closer to hell than a prostitute.
Lewis believed in Hell. His statement was one against self-righteousness. And He’s right.
November 7th, 2005 at 10:25 pm
Well, that was a thoughtful post. Some observations, though, if I may. (Incidentally, I just number because it helps me keep my thoughts compartmentalized.)
1) I appreicate that a lot of people have written about hell, both in the Bible and elsewhere. (Lewis, whom I respect mightily, did speak about hell quite a bit; however, I would also point that Lewis was a pluralist and as such did not have exactly the same definition of hell that we are speaking of here.) But the fact that a lot of people have written about it don’t change the logical problems with the concept. The ideas of hell and God are logically incompatible. It’s practically a mathematical concept. Nothing you say really refutes that.
2) The idea that hell and God are logically inconsistent does not actually limit God’s power. I think it was Aquinas who said that it was a sin to regard that fact that God cannot do the impossible as a limitation on his powers. I don’t really think of it as a “sin” myself, but the point is well taken: God can’t create a square circle, and an all-loving, infinitely just God couldn’t send someone to everlasting punishment for what is a finite and ultimately meaningless act.
3) I really don’t understand your point about “horizontal” versus “vertical” judgment. But the point still remains that if God is superior to me, and I can forgive a person for anything, God should be able to do the same thing. This applies to everyone on earth. So in that sense, God calling someone contemptible or worthy of punishment makes zero sense.
4) Small/large amount of sin: I already addressed this with the “original sin” argument. It simply replaces “X=sin units” with “X=having accepted salvation.” Logically, these are identical arguments.
5) God’s Love vs. God Justice. This is a good point, but extremely short-sided. You’re assuming that justice means the same thing to God as it does to our courts. Given that God is infinite, I don’t really see how it could. Let me taken your example, in which my mother is killed, etc.
I imagine there would be a trial, and the prosecutor would want the death penalty, or at least a life sentence. I, however, would not. Let me tell you why: if something as horrible as my mother’s murder did take place, I would be inconsolable. There would be nothing that could make that better. Whether the murderer lived, died, hurt, won the lottery, it would all be the same to me. I would still have lost my mother. What possible solace could it give me to hurt him/her now? I don’t believe in revenge.
So, there is *really* no moral reason for me to want the murderer to be punished. Indeed, I would argue against the death penalty in that very case, because I just don’t think hurting another person would ever lift that grief. (There’s the argument that we punish criminals to keep them from hurting other people, and I’m not addressing that because that’s completely separate from the moral argument.)
Now that’s a long-winded point. But what I wanted was to get to this: God is infinite, and created a part of humans (the soul) that is infinite. The physical world is going to be snuffed out sooner or later anyway. A human life is barely an eyeblink to something as eternal as God.
Why on earth would such an infinite God care what we do in the physical world? (Let alone, why would God punish us *for eternity* for what we do in the physical world?) Actually, I think Christianity has an answer for us: God cares about our *spiritual* development. While our actions on earth may reflect the ful extent of that development, there may be some people, who because of an inability to change the past or their lives, have not reflected that development in the same way. Do you really think God can’t tell the difference?
And if they’re not spiritually developed, what then? God is an infinite being with infinite understanding. Is he *really* going to hold it against Joe Blow, a finite little ant in the universe, who in a mere 70 years could not understand spiritual life, which was something he could not see, touch, or talk about? Is God *really* going to send that person to hell?
The answer has to be no. Otherwise, we’ve made God into a screeching, insecure, nagging caricature- like a cruel kid on the playground who’s bigger than everyone else. A tyrant who rules only by virtue of the fact that he can see farther than everybody else. Is *that* the God that Jesus spoke about? I really don’t think so.
6) On fear. Why on earth would I be afraid of God? We’re all swimming in God night and day. God created us. God is something totally benevolent and friendly, and I know that no matter what, God would only want the best for me. Does that make me foolish? Perhaps, but I don’t think so. Does it make me a bad person? Quite the contrary, I think it makes me a much better person. When I am a bad person, it’s usually because I *am* afraid, or insecure, or vindictive. It’s only when I really free myself from these slavish ideas and attitudes that I can be a good person.
Do I do bad things? Absolutely. Like everyone. But, I think on the whole, I do more good things than bad things. And I think that if I were to meet Jesus today, he wouldn’t call me a “sinner,” or tell me that I was contemptible, or cast me down into hell. I would humbly suggest that he would see that I’m doing the best I can with what I have to work with, and focus on that. I don’t think he would be particularly concerned with any of the other stuff.
And if God hears this, and still wants to send me to hell, I don’t guess there’s really anything I can do about that. He’s God. But I do know that if I read out of a little book and started praying in a church *just because* I was afraid I would go to hell otherwise, I wouldn’t be doing any of it for the right reasons.
And that moral choice, in my mind, is far more contemptible that some unintentional, blanket “original sin” that I really can’t do anything to erase.
November 10th, 2005 at 10:30 am
First, my apologies for not getting to you sooner. It is important to me, but I’ve had other commitments and have not had the time I wanted to reply.
You are right. God can forgive anything. Will he automatically? No (or highly unlikely), because it’s contrary to His very nature. You are also right again; nothing *I* say matters much. However, what God says through the inspired Scripture does matter. The words of Christ matter. The words of the Prophets and Apostles matter. I specifically and intentionally provided scriptures to back up my comments for that reason. You have offered nothing except that in your mind the concept of Hell is illogical or unfair (not that our idea of fairness matters). Why then would God allow it to be in the Bible? Is the Creator of the universe so small that He can’t dictate His truth to those He inspires? I think not. Do you ever read the Bible (I don’t mean that derogatorily, I am just wondering)?
AD, you seem to have taken what parts of God that are appealing to you and molded them (at least mentally) into a false God. It’s called idolatry and a violation of the 2nd Commandment.
We could go point for point on this discussion, but ultimately it won’t matter; because as you have stated, you don’t see yourself as a bad person in need of forgiveness from a Holy and Righteous God. The Bible calls that pride or self-righteousness. James 4:6 But He giveth more grace. Wherefore He saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, (10) nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
At least that’s what scripture says. I really would encourage you to read it everyday and obey what you read.
May God show you mercy.
Sincerely,
Ron
November 10th, 2005 at 10:26 pm
Wait a minute . . . did Corinthians actually say the effeminate will go to hell? How on earth did I miss that one?
This is an awkward situation. I really do believe you are sincere when you tell me that I’m being prideful or arrogant, and yet, ironically, your sincerity makes what you are saying arrogant. So, a couple things:
1) We both agree God can forgive anything. For some reason, you are the only one in the conversation who thinks he has a realistic idea of the exact kind of forgiveness God will grant, and to whom. Who’s the arrogant one here?
2) Which brings us to the Bible. Yes, I’m aware that you’re basing your arguments on the Bible, and that your position is that because the Bible is external to you, it is somehow more credible than your own powers of logic. The trouble that creates is that there are *lots* of holy books out there, each of them as convincing as the Bible as to spiritual truths and authenticity. Yes, I’ve read the Bible. I’ve also read the Bhagavad Gita, the Tao Te Ching, and Chuang Tzu. They also seem like very wise and spiritual works to me. I think that if God had a point in letting me find and read these books, it was so that I could think about them critically, and how their principles could apply in my life. Who’s to say that the God portrayed in the Bible is the last word on the nature of God? If God is infinite, how could *any* book have the last word?
3) The fact that the principles you’re espousing come from the Bible doesn’t excuse that they don’t make sense. That’s where the logic argument comes in. That’s the whole argument about Aquinas, God making a stone to heavy for God to lift, blah blah blah. You get the idea. Even the most devout Christian theolgians realized that the Bible has to be reconciled with logic- otherwise none of it means anything.
4) Since we’re swapping Bible verses, I’d urge to take a look at a couple yourself. Specifically, in Leviticus, where it says that you’re not supposed to eat shellfish. Or wear clothes made up of more than one fiber. Or be gay. Oh, wait- most Christians still do think that last one is a sin.
But those are silly examples. What about in Matthew, where Jesus stringently urges the faithful to pray in their closets? What does that say about public demonstrations of faith? What about where Jesus specifically goes against the Old Testament, as in the story which ends with, “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone?” Or *any* of the times when Jesus chided people for clinging blindly to scripture? (See the aforementioned If Grace is True for some extensive analyses of Jesus’relationship with prior scripture.) Are those also the divine word of God? Should we treat them all equally, to the exclusion each other, or any other faiths, or even our own moral compasses? Does that even make sense?
5) Perhaps I have made a false God. I don’t know. But I think of it as a logical inevitability. And what does it say about your conception of God, if my idol is indeed more loving and forgiving than your God?
6) Finally, you are right in that I don’t see myself as a bad person, but that’s not the extent of the difference between you and me. The difference is that I don’t think anyone is a bad person, whereas you think, at their core, everyone is bad. It is a completely fundamental philosophical difference in temperment. And in my mind, it’s absolutely critical to understanding things as they really are. It means that when I pray or talk to God, it’s not because I feel like I have to, or I’ll be punished if I don’t. It’s because I want to and feel it’s the right thing to do. And if that’s not at least a step closer to Jesus’ philosophy, I don’t know what is.
November 11th, 2005 at 12:18 pm
1. I do not intend to come across as arrogant (or better than you or anyone else). If I do, please accept my apology. When I refer to you as arrogant, I don’t mean regarding your fellow man, but in your approach to God. I mean, who can stand before God and say “yeah, you should let me in Heaven.†It also appears arrogant to say scripture lacks logic. It’s logical to me, by the grace of God. But that may be because Hell too is logical in my understanding.
2. I know of no other “holy book†to contain amount of completed prophesy. Just the Messianic Prophesies alone are amazing and point to the divine nature of Scripture. Among them, where He would be born, to which family, His vocation, His time of birth, who would hear His teachings, how they would react, His innocence, His punishment, His execution, time of death, His resurrection, so-on and so-on. All foretold in many cases hundreds of years in advance. The odds that someone could just predict the time and place of both His birth and death (all items beyond His control – without God) is nothing short of awesome. The Bible is not merely “any bookâ€. It is the primary way God has chosen to reveal His will toward us.
3. Can God make a stone so heavy He can’t lift it? Sure He Can. And then He can lift it, too. Does that make sense? Not to me. But you seem to be demanding God fit into your ability to understand or you don’t believe Him or what He has said. Again, that is all I mean by arrogance. I think it was Mark Twain who said: “Most people are bothered by those passages in scripture which they cannot understand; but as for me, I always noticed that the passages in scripture which trouble me most are those I do understand.”
Are you able to use logic and reason to see evidence of God? Sure. I do. And I see Hell and Justice as compatible and logical parts of God’s character.
4. Aside from the fact that you have removed the context of those passages, let’s stay on track and let me just respond by saying you are right, I have broken God’s law. Now what do I do?
5. There are many “idols†more attractive than God Almighty. We all would love to follow a god that would just let us have our own way. But that is not the God of scripture.
6. Nowhere that I am aware of dose the Bible teach that you’ll be punished for not praying (unless you count repentance). My prayers to God are out of thanksgiving. I am a law-breaker, a “sinnerâ€, a mere speck on His creation. Yet, I am in awe at the grace He offers me through Christ. I was guilty of breaking His law. I did what I knew was wrong for years. Christ calls us to repent (Luke 13:3,5) and be made a new creation (2 Cor 5:17). That same grace is offered to any who want it.
My prayer is “Angry†that you realize, God does love you. But that won’t stop Him from judging you according to His righteousness and His standard set before us in scripture. God is not one to deceive us. He has not put references to Hell all throughout Scripture to have a good laugh on the conservatives. Hell is real. If you don’t believe that, your lack of belief won’t change the reality of its existence.
I’m sure you have more to say, but this is the end of my thoughts on this. In summary, scripture is clear: you must have faith to be saved (without Hell, what are we saved from?) by God’s grace. Faith in what? Faith in the Savior, Jesus Christ (John 14:6). Without repentance there is no need for a savior (i.e. “I don’t need Christ’s sacrificial gift or God’s forgiveness, I’m good enough to enter Heaven without itâ€).
I pray God will open your eyes, as well as mine, to reveal Himself further to us both.
For His Glory!
Ron