Seattle – 10
Pittsburgh – 21
Free Speech – zero.
- Huge crowd.
- American City.
- Public Property.
Should you be allowed to peacefully protest?
Not in the “Peoples Republic of Detroit.”
The following is from a LLM email alert:
Detroit Police Department Violates The Law As They Shut Down Christian Witness Over Super Bowl Weekend
February 09, 2006
Free speech was the loser during the Super Bowl in Detroit. As you have probably heard, Life and Liberty Ministries Director Dennis Green was arrested and jailed on Saturday and the LLM Truth Truck was impounded. Here is and update and a day by day recount of the harassment received from the DPD.
Feb. 3, Friday
Dennis Green and Jerry Penner begin to drive around Detroit’s downtown area.
The Truth Truck is stopped and Dennis Green is told that he cannot drive the Truck on the streets. The streets were filled with other vehicles and all traffic laws were being adhered to. When asked what law was being violated, the officer angrily demands Mr. Green’s drivers license and vehicle registration. Both are produced and the officer leaves the vehicle momentarily. He returns with a ticket for not having a vehicle registration even though he was holding the current registration in his hand.
Feb. 4, Saturday
12:00 – 2:40 PM – As we drove around the Cobo Center, we were stopped several times by officers saying that we could not drive on the street with the other traffic. Each time we asked what law we were violating and each time none was given. We would eventually drive away with the officers acknowledging that it was our Constitutional Right to drive down the street.
2:40 PM – The Truck is pulled over by four police cars and an impolite officer rudely asks Mr. Green what he thinks he is doing. The officer demands proof of registration and drivers license. Both are produced. Dennis is then asked to get out of the vehicle to be frisked. He is then told to stand outside of the vehicle in the snow as the officers discuss their next move. Two officers are overheard discussing how they could cut the signs from the vehicle and the officer in charge calls for a tow truck. After approximately 30 minutes, Mr. Green is approached as he was standing on the street and placed under arrest. He was charged with “failure to obtain a permit”.
Approximately 6:30PM – Dennis Green pays $100.00 bond to get out of jail.
Feb. 5, Sunday
Approximately 2:00PM – Mark Gabriel pulls over to look at a map (with flashers on). He is driving a van with pro-life and Gospel messages on the sides. The DPD immediately pull up and order Mark and John Stambaugh out of the vehicle. The vehicle is impounded and they are left standing on the street.
Cal Zastrow and Dennis Green go from one police station to another seeking information on the status of the impounded Truth Truck. Either false information or no information is repeatedly given. One officer said that she would not speak with them when they asked for directions to a different precinct address. They give up searching for the day.
For a couple hours, Dennis Green, Cal Zastrow, Chris Coatney and Michael Marcavage preach to the crowds who are entering Ford Field for the Super Bowl. They are on a public street with thousands of others milling about. DPD approach them and order them to cross the street. They obey. After standing in that location for several minutes, several police cars and a police prisoner transport van drive up. They are then ordered to drop their signs and leave the entire downtown area. They are told that signs are forbidden. Even as this is being said, there are many signs being held in the area by others. They are told that our signs specifically had to go since they deal with abortion. The signs are removed from their hands and an officer stands on them. They are given 60 seconds to leave the area or be arrested. When asked what law they had violated, none was given. When the officers were asked to identify themselves, they refused. When asked how far they had to go, they were told, “all the way to the river!” The officer in charge was the same that orchestrated Dennis Green’s arrest the previous day.
Feb. 6, Monday
DPD continues to refuse to give information about the Truth Truck’s status.
Feb. 7, Tuesday
Mark Gabriel’s van is released after the payment of a $155.00 fee. In the late afternoon, the Truth Truck is finally released after a payment of a $250.00 fee.
Feb. 8, Wednesday
8:30 – 12:00 – Dennis Green sits in a Courtroom waiting for his case to be called. He is called into the hallway where an officer tells him that there is no paperwork on file and he can just go home.
In other words, he is asked to leave town and act like this never happened. The American Family Association’s Center for Law and Policy will be representing Dennis Green in this matter.
Contact:
Dennis Green
P.O. Box 862
Powhatan, VA 23139
(804)898-2458
For photos, visit:
www.lifeandlibertyministries.com
Popularity: 1% [?]
February 9th, 2006 at 8:02 pm
I’m a big proponent of the first amendment rights, including that of free expression. So, I strongly support their right to put whatever messages they want on their vans and drive around, and to peacefully protest on the street corner near the superbowl. In ones and twos, that should not even require a permit. If the facts are as they were presented here, then they certainly do have a case against the city of Detroit, and I applaud the Center for Law and Policy for – in this case – sticking up for the first amendment. I only wish they were consistent in their application of it instead of supporting only Christians who have a case. Of course, if the facts are not as relayed here, then I would not necessarily support the LLM protestors’ position.
If the complaint was centered on public display of images of aborted fetuses – and if it were handled correctly as such – then the complaint would be at least as valid as one against someone who enlarged pictures from Hustler magazine and displayed them publicly. Some images are not “decent” for display where children are likely to encounter them.
February 10th, 2006 at 6:36 am
The fact that, 1) this is not the first time these folks have driven the truth truck to a major event. 2) That they are stopped constantly in that truck. (everyone knows if you are pro-life you are a terrorist :p) So they know to have the truck road worthy and all paperwork ready to go. And 3 ) the city seems to have “lost” the paperwork leads me to believe them.
Regarding the images: We let our older children see their little brother’s delivery (via c-section). My 7 year-old (at the time) learned of abortion on the way to school thanks to a radio news story. I had about 3 minutes to explain what abortion was. He didn’t freak out. I’m told by friends that those don’t outrage children, they are more curious than anything. The outrage typically comes from adults in two forms. Either it triggers guilt or it awakens the apathetic. A natural reaction is outrage. We should be outraged. The photos show the reality that abortion destroys an innocent human life. It’s not much different than what TV news does with images from Iraq. Images are powerful, they can and have changed history.
February 10th, 2006 at 5:07 pm
I agree the facts are probably correct, but I always question self-reporting on such matters – an independent news agency would be preferable, because it’s just way too easy to leave out the important details.
Concerning the images – to clarify – images of live or lifelike fetuses from ultrasound or whatever are fine… pictures of gory, bloody, aborted fetuses are not appropriate according to any community standard I’m aware of for public display.
It may or may not be the case that abortion destroys an “innocent human life”, and that may or may not be a salient moral point, but the pictures don’t really demonstrate either point. Neither humanity nor life is a superficial quality that can be detected merely by looking at a photograph. The photographs show only physical form – our preconceived notions about humanity, personhood and/or life determine our moral reaction to the that physical form.
The question is deeper than that – Not that I object to images of live (or life-like) fetuses as part of the discussion… just that they are not a very important part of the discussion.
February 10th, 2006 at 5:31 pm
Here is the account as told by Mark Gabriel.
I took my truth van to Detroit to be a witness to the thousands gathered for the super bowl last weekend. A local brother had invited me and I had heard of the powerful witness made by three trucks at last years super bowl in Jacksonville, Florida. Denny Green of Life & Liberty Ministries also came with his truth truck. Denny and his son Caleb were part of our China mission trip last May.
John Stambaugh with the Missionaries to the Preborn in Milwaukee, went with me. He was a tremendous help to me and a blessing to have on the trip. We went to the Dearborn abortion center to minister with my friend, Chris Coatney, on Saturday morning. Saturday afternoon, we got a call from Denny telling us the police were towing his truck and arresting him. We had planned to get downtown, but this news made us move quicker. We jumped in the van and headed for the street Denny was on when he was pulled over. We went down Grand River Blvd., but saw no sign of Jerry Penner, Denny’s copilot, who was left stranded on the sidewalk. We drove around downtown with cars and people all around us. After what happened to Denny, I fully expected to be pulled over, but we never were. We all met up that night after Denny got bonded out of jail and Jerry got a cab to the machine shop we were stayed. At word of what happened to Denny and the truck, Cal Zastrow came from Bay City, and Michael Marcavich drove all the way from Pennsylvania.
We went back downtown the next day. We planned to hold the signs in back of my van near an entrance gate to the stadium. While driving downtown, I got word from Cal of the location to drop off the signs. I pulled over to look at the map and figure out how to get there. As I was planning to leave, a code enforcement officer prevented me from leaving and informed me that I was in violation of a recently passed, super bowl city ordinance, titled “No Mobile Advertisement.” He said the signs on my vehicle constituted mobile advertisement and he ordered me outside the “entertainment zone.” Before I had a chance to comply with the order, police officers decided to tow my vehicle. The police complained about the signs as well, but after they noticed the no parking sign beside where I had pulled over temporarily with my flashers on, they said they would tow it for that reason. They did not give me a ticket then, but two days later, when I was able to pick up the van at the impound yard, it had the remains of a parking ticket on the windshield.
John and I jumped in Michael’s car riding behind us. We parked and met up with Denny, Cal and Michael Mattia (the local brother who invited me back in August after doing some ministry together). We were left with only two poster signs among the five of us (Jerry stayed back), but we had a good amount of literature to hand out. Chris Coatney arrived later with more poster signs. After awhile, the same Police supervisor that had seen to the towing of Denny’s truck and his arrest, showed up and ordered all with signs out of the area. I was on the other side of the line of people headed into the stadium, so I missed that encounter. I had decided that the most fruitful use of my time was to stand next to the line of people, open up the literature which had pictures of 7,21, and 24 week murdered preborn children, and preach to them God’s Law and just judgements on unrepentant people. I told them: “This is what abortion is, this is what it does to innocent defenseless babies.” “God cares more about justice for children than about our entertainment.” “All the athletes on the field today are survivors of the abortion holocaust. There mothers could have done this to them.” “How many more professional athletes are we missing today because of abortion?” While preaching, the people were subdued. There was a shame in the air. Many people looked at the pictures, few said anything. A small number took literature and a few also voiced their agreement with what I was saying. A few said this was the wrong place for that, and only one denied the accuracy of the photos. After I realized that all the brothers were gone, I walked away from the line and started to call on the cell phone, when I heard Denny call to me. It was then, I learned how the police had made them move, and we left to join them. They had not moved far, just a couple blocks away in the Greek Town section of Detroit. We held our signs on four corners, as many pedestrians flowed by. We witnessed there until the game started and it was getting dark. We got something to eat together and had a blessed time of fellowship. Despite the trials of the day, it was a good day. God’s Word and His truth went forth. We pray for fruit to be brought forth.
Denny’s article from his web site, http://www.lifeandlibertyministries.com can be seen below. He has a great ministry and an excellent web page. God bless. Mark
February 10th, 2006 at 8:13 pm
Smijer, but they do get folks talking.. and THAT is a good thing. I think we are close to the time when America will reexamine when life begins and what should be done when that point is determined. 30 years ago, I am not sure we knew what we know now. I was too young then.
Mr. Green, good to have you stop by. Thanks for the update. Chime in anytime.
February 10th, 2006 at 11:41 pm
Ron, Talking is definitely a good thing. And, I really do think we need a sincere national dialogue around the abortion debate. I have a lot of sympathy for your side of it… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with a devotion to all human life. Some Buddhists revere all life, human or not… That’s certainly better than valuing no life, or no human life.
I’ve done a lot of thinking about my stance on abortion, and I don’t know that I could ever be completely comfortable with any stance. I think of all life as being – in some way, at least – sacred…. That’s especially true for human life… however, I don’t think that fetal (at least early term fetal) human life is morally equivalent to personhood, and I don’t think it’s destruction is tantamount to murder – for a variety of reasons. And, for a variety of reasons, I think abortion should be kept legal. But I would join any good faith effort to create a situation where fewer women would choose abortion – that would include counseling (mandatory so long as there were no undue delays, creating more later term abortions), sex and abstinence education, WIC and other programs for making pregnancy and childbirth economically viable, and widespread availability of plan B contraception for those who have made a mistake (or been coerced) and realize it in time to prevent pregnancy. I wish that more people on both sides would agree to come together and ethically pursue these efforts, while engaging in honest and civil debate over the issues of abortion legality… Instead, from where I sit, it looks like a screaming match. Hopefully, the terms of the debate will change, for the welfare of the women and for the preservation of viable pregnancies.
February 11th, 2006 at 8:30 am
It’s probably impossible to take the emotion out of it. I’m not sure any would want to.
The “not the moral equivalent” is a very dangerous road to start down. Because before you know it, you are applying it to the terminally ill, the elderly, retarded, even born infants.
I lay blame in great part at the door of the church. We
wereare lazy and have let government take over when we should be providing human services. There is abortion because:We don’t faithfully teach every life has value (even before it exits the womb)
We don’t teach fathers must love their wifes and be willing to give up everything for them (as Christ gave up everything, even life, for us).
We don’t teach fathers that children look up to them and follow their examples (good or bad)
We don’t teach young girls or boys that we are to deny ourself and our own lusts (and here) for the Glory of God.
When little girls fail, we don’t forgive them.
When they need us most, we don’t help them.
And we don’t teach there is a judgment to come, not just for the individual, but for the church.
Incidentally, consistent teaching and preaching of these principles would not only reduce abortion; but divorce, child abuse, homosexuality and a ton of other things we “right wingers” say we are concerned about.
February 11th, 2006 at 8:42 pm
I agree… emotion has its place in any values dialogue. The trick is to avoid being carried away by it to the point where thoughtful dialogue becomes difficult or impossible.
Danger should be met with caution – not necessarily capitulation. There are times when the best position is the dangerous one. I do believe there is a difference that cuts to the heart of the most urgent moral questions between an early term fetus and a person whose life must be protected by the law.
I think I understand why people disagree with that position. And, I acknowledge that they may be right to. Hopefully, with dialogue, people who disagree on that or other important matters related to abortion will do a better job of understanding why the others think and feel the way they do.
February 11th, 2006 at 8:44 pm
P.S. – I agree with most of what you wrote in the rest of your comment. I would quibble over whether homosexuality will go away so easily, but on the other hand, if there is something you can do positive to address all these other issues, maybe it will distract you guys from waging a culture war against homosexuals… and that would be a good result, too
February 13th, 2006 at 8:46 am
Yes, it would. I know I come across hateful too often.